3 things why you could never be Catholic again

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ronnok20 said:
It strongly looks like you are the one who is having issues understanding doctrine. Your own Catechism states that Mary is a co-redemptrix of souls. Did you miss that entirely? I am beginning to believe that you are not very well rooted in your denomination. A Catholic priest once told me that it is of RC dogma that salvation without Mary is not possible and that being of the Catechism of the Catholic church.
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Really, you don’t know much about me. I have read many of the Church documents.

In way, the priest is right. Because Mary consented to God’s will by saying “Be it Done Unto Me According to Your Word.” If she didn’t consent to God’s will, there would be no Jesus Christ, since Jesus’ own flesh and blood comes from Mary.

The Prophet Isaiah in 7:14 said of Mary, “Therefore, the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall concieve and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel.”
 
rmcmullan said:
HoseMonkey! Thank you for your probing analysis. You’re one of the few voices here at the Catholic forums I can always rely on to give a hostile, unpleasant remark.

Dosdog, I really don’t know why you are even persuing this line of reasoning. Neither you nor I are well qualified archeologists and parroting back what you read in somebody’s book isn’t going to impress me. Really, what’s the point? You can pick your witnesses and present their testimonies but in the end, you don’t know anything about it and there’s no jury.

I think you underestimate my conviction of the truthfullness of the Book of Mormon. There’s really no point in trying to undermine it. It really is the #1 reason why I will never go back to being a Catholic. That plus the absence of Apostles. Oh, and the gifts of the spirit thing.

Instead of trying to undermine the Book of Mormon, why don’t you tell me what changes in doctrine you’d have to make in order to accept it (and add it to the Catholic canon) and from there we can discuss those changes. Or have you never read it enough to understand it? I don’t want to hear anything about what some learned person wrote or said about it, I want to know what you personally think about it.
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Originally Posted by hosemonkey View Post
You are citing from a book of fiction.The BOM has no basis in fact and is a product of the imagination of Joseph Smith, plagarist and con-man. You may as well cite “The Lord of the Rings,” It is just as factual.

Prove me wrong.
Believing in the BOM is like believing in leprechauns, a pleasant fantasy, but untrue. (Sorry, leprechauns):cool:
Those who attempt to sell mormonism or the BOM are selling snake oil, at an inflated price. The price of eternal salvation.
 
ronnok20 said:
I am interested in why former Catholics would never return back to the Catholic church. Here are three things that will keep me from returning:
  1. The manditory belief in the infallibility of the magisterium.
  2. The belief that Mary is a co-redemptrix with Christ.
  3. The unwillingness of the RC to acknowledge that God is wholly in other churches besides the RC.
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Wow, ready for a response that will infuriate some and confuse others???

I am not active in the RCC because I could not (in good conscience) continue going to Holy Communion. After all, doing so implies that I am in full union with the Bishop of Rome and fully believe all things that are taught by the Magisterium of the RCC. I am now attending an Anglo-Catholic (Anglican/Episcopalian) parish. Yes, I called it Catholic (though not ROMAN Catholic), don’t get hung up on that or you will miss the point of this post.

Interestingly, the only point you mention that caused me any angst is #1. I am still grappling with infallibility, and may never come to accept it completely. However, the Marian doctrines have never caused me any sleepless nights. How can we say that the Blessed Mother was truly the Mother of God (the channel that God used to bring Himself into the world) and then claim that she has absolutely no part in the redemtion of Humanity? Is that not a contradiction? By totally sacrificing her own will to the will of God, she became the means by which grace and salvation were possible for humankind. Don’t get stuck on the term itself, it sounds confusing!! If the term Co-redemptrix meant equal to Christ in the power to save us, then your objections would be warranted. However, the term actually means that she was Christ’s partner inasmuch as she enabled him to be brought into this world in human form.

Point #3 is false as it is worded. The ROMAN Catholic Church has never stated that God is not “wholly present” in other parts of the Church. It teaches that God is not wholly present in NON-Catholic churches. The RCC teaches that God is just as present in the Eastern uniate churches, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and even the schismatic churches like the Old Catholic Church, and the various schismatic groups (SSPX, SSPV, etc.) [Too bad they don’t add certain groups within Anglicanism. For instance, the more liturgically conservative Anglo-Catholics, who have ensured the integrity of our Sacraments (by ensuring ordination by an Eastern Orthodox bishop in response to the critiques of His Holiness Pope Leo XIII), but I am getting ahead of myself here…]
 
“Instead of trying to undermine the Book of Mormon, why don’t you tell me what changes in doctrine you’d have to make in order to accept it (and add it to the Catholic canon) and from there we can discuss those changes. Or have you never read it enough to understand it? I don’t want to hear anything about what some learned person wrote or said about it, I want to know what you personally think about it.”

“Add it to the Catholic canon???” LOL!!! In my personal opinion, I think that the Church would rather add “Mein Kampf” to the Catholic canon before it would consider the BOM. The two things that separates Mein Kampf from the BOM is that Adolf Hitler only plagarized a little of Mein Kampf, secondly, at least Mein Kampf was a factual account of Hitler’s twisted fantasies. I read enough of the BOM to realize that it was very difficult to stay awake while reading it and, if nothing else, I admire Joseph Smith for his creativity and imagination. In another time, he could have had a great career as a Hollywood screenwriter. I am truly sorry if you find my comments upsetting but dishonesty in all forms angers me. And when you are lying to people about something as important as their eternal salvation, I really get upset. After years of studying mormonism, I find nothing truthful in it. I am only sorry that so many are deluded by it.
 
Funny how the anti-catholic middle 19th century in America created the Mormons, the SDA, the (no)Fundamentalists, and other Church of Christ haters. Maybe we can have a “cult” forum, and y’all can discuss your varied ways in which you are each the “real” church and how evil the church Christ founded was.
 
Odd, I would have expected to get comparatively more trouble for being a non-theist, yet aside from one tiny little post you’re flinging your dung at your own brothers and sisters in the Christ like so many ill-behaved monkeys in a zoo.

Way to shine your light before others that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father, guys. I suppose we can make this thread reason #2 for me.
 
Mirdath, maybe you were raised as a single child, but I was raised with 6 brothers. I believe that brothers and sisters fight constantly over certain things, even to the point of bruising. Never forget though, that you always know that regardless, they are still your brother and sister. While it appears that the fighting is harsh, just let an outsider try to intervene and what happens? We are not out in the world fighting, so to speak, we are here, inside a forum where we can be somewhat more careless. Everyone gets rankled at times, just like in a family. I’m sure Paul and Peter had disagreements, we have some of them written in scripture. I’m sorry you feel this is your #2 point, Maybe you could try to understand the dynamics of a family before you make your judgments
Peace,
Kevin.
 
kmcgonigle said:
Mirdath, maybe you were raised as a single child, but I was raised with 6 brothers. I believe that brothers and sisters fight constantly over certain things, even to the point of bruising. Never forget though, that you always know that regardless, they are still your brother and sister.
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Would that the Catholics posting in this thread were still little children; then they might have an excuse for their behavior. As it is, they are not, and there is no excuse for this wretched bickering.
 
Mirdath said:
Would that the Catholics posting in this thread were still little children; then they might have an excuse for their behavior. As it is, they are not, and there is no excuse for this wretched bickering.
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1 Peter 3 15 But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you.
 
dosdog said:
1 Peter 3 15 But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you.
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James 1:26: If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.

I can chapter-and-verse too! Nobody was asking.
 
Mirdath said:
James 1:26: If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.

I can chapter-and-verse too! Nobody was asking.
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Luke 173 Take heed to yourselves. If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him: and if he do penance, forgive him.

2 Timothy 3 16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice,

And if it wasnt for the Crusaders you would be in a Burka praying to Mecca 5 times a day

Whether we admire the Crusaders or not, it is a fact that the world we know today would not exist without their efforts. The ancient faith of Christianity, with its respect for women and antipathy toward slavery, not only survived but flourished. Without the Crusades, it might well have followed Zoroastrianism, another of Islam’s rivals, into extinction.

crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm
 
dosdog said:
Luke 173 Take heed to yourselves. If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him: and if he do penance, forgive him.

2 Timothy 3 16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice,
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Luke 9:5: And as for those who do not welcome you, when you leave that town, shake the dust from your feet in testimony against them.

I would respectfully suggest you reprove those who open themselves to reproach, display charity towards them and to everyone else, and if not the above two, take the hint.
 
Mirdath said:
Luke 9:5: And as for those who do not welcome you, when you leave that town, shake the dust from your feet in testimony against them.
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Matthew 11 20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of his miracles, for that they had not done penance.

Matthew 10 34 Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.
 
ronnok20 said:
I am interested in why former Catholics would never return back to the Catholic church. Here are three things that will keep me from returning:
  1. The manditory belief in the infallibility of the magisterium.
  2. The belief that Mary is a co-redemptrix with Christ.
  3. The unwillingness of the RC to acknowledge that God is wholly in other churches besides the RC.
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It almost sounds like we need to go back to the classroom here.
  1. The pope is considered infallable but not impeccable. Meaning he can still sin. He is not perfect, but closer than most of humanity.
  2. We love Mary and she can be inspirational, but we do not believe her to be on the same level as Christ.
  3. Two words could best describe this. Faith and integrity. As RC’s are called on to have faith in what we do and how we do it to be the best way of celebrating our religion. Integrity to have the self-assuradeness that we can handle any criticism that may be directed at us or our church. This is not meant to be insulting to other religions, rather it’s just a statement of faith in our own religion.
It seems to me that you might of had some chaos in your life and left the church because you were upset with it or God or both. But you never really seem to have known your faith before you left it. Hopefully you can come to a reconciliation with God, your private life and yes, even the church. Good Luck!
 
RedSoxFan said:
It almost sounds like we need to go back to the classroom here.
  1. The pope is considered infallable but not impeccable. Meaning he can still sin. He is not perfect, but closer than most of humanity.
  2. We love Mary and she can be inspirational, but we do not believe her to be on the same level as Christ.
  3. Two words could best describe this. Faith and integrity. As RC’s are called on to have faith in what we do and how we do it to be the best way of celebrating our religion. Integrity to have the self-assuradeness that we can handle any criticism that may be directed at us or our church. This is not meant to be insulting to other religions, rather it’s just a statement of faith in our own religion.
It seems to me that you might of had some chaos in your life and left the church because you were upset with it or God or both. But you never really seem to have known your faith before you left it. Hopefully you can come to a reconciliation with God, your private life and yes, even the church. Good Luck!
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At an average size mass in an average size church, could you show me three persons there that know the Catholic faith in a manner which would be considered good? I would challenge you to explore that.
 
ronnok20 said:
At an average size mass in an average size church, could you show me three persons there that know the Catholic faith in a manner which would be considered good? I would challenge you to explore that.
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I can name three off the top of my head. Father, Son, and Holy Spirt.
 
ronnok20 said:
At an average size mass in an average size church, could you show me three persons there that know the Catholic faith in a manner which would be considered good? I would challenge you to explore that.
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Sure. Come on over to Albuquerque and visit my parish, Our Lady of the Annunciation. We have perpetual adoration, and often the room is full. Even overnight, there will be a half-dozen worshippers there. We have five Sunday masses, with a vigil mass on Saturday evening, and generally all six masses are packed. Daily mass hardly ever has fewer than 100 people, and usually more. The line at Saturday confession is almost never less than an hour long, with two priests hearing confessions. I have sat in class with many parishoners who have extensive knowledge of Catholic teachings.

It is, of course, impossible to know how much each individual “knows” but I’ll say this: it doesn’t really matter. People don’t come to mass because of what they know, but because of WHO they know.

Also, surely there are people among these who are going thru the motions to some degree. Heck, I often go thru the motions myself if I’m having a dry time. Each person has to meet the Savior on his/her own ground; we can’t speak for each other. Suffice to say that thousands of people go to mass at my parish, and from all appearances, most of them are extremely devout and respectful of our Lord, our Lady, and we love our Godly priests and deacons, who are truly, men of God.
 
ronnok20 said:
It strongly looks like you are the one who is having issues understanding doctrine. Your own Catechism states that Mary is a co-redemptrix of souls. Did you miss that entirely? I am beginning to believe that you are not very well rooted in your denomination. A Catholic priest once told me that it is of RC dogma that salvation without Mary is not possible and that being of the Catechism of the Catholic church.
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Co-redemetrix is not Catholic dogma. There is nothing in the Catechism that says such. Mary is not the saviour in the Catholic Church; Jesus is.
 
ronnok20 said:
At an average size mass in an average size church, could you show me three persons there that know the Catholic faith in a manner which would be considered good? I would challenge you to explore that.
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Very easy! Those nice old ladies that are always there with thier rosary beads. 🙂 Honestly, like many things in life church is what you make it. God, gives us all free will. He let’s us decide how much we choose to study about our faith. While I wish there were more knowledgeable people in our church, I think the best way to ensure there are more is to be one and then lead by example.
 
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