30 thousand denominations?

[a_Pole_ogist]

There is a widely accepted number of over 30 000 Christian denominations in the world, but where this number comes from? I heard one time that it is from Oxford Christian Encyclopedia, but what is it (if that’s actually source of that number)? Who publish it? Is that protestant source, or non Christian at all?

And I apologize if that question already was discussed on the forums. If so maybe someone can help me find it? Thanks.

 

[O.S.Luke]

There is a widely accepted number of over 30 000 Christian denominations in the world, but where this number comes from? I heard one time that it is from Oxford Christian Encyclopedia, but what is it (if that’s actually source of that number)? Who publish it? Is that protestant source, or non Christian at all?

And I apologize if that question already was discussed on the forums. If so maybe someone can help me find it? Thanks.

It’s quite the exaggeration, but some folks find it useful when they’re arguing a point.

 

[a_Pole_ogist]

It’s quite the exaggeration, but some folks find it useful when they’re arguing a point.

But if it isn’t true number, how can be useful? If we have to use fake numbers how good our argument is? Besides, if that number would be one thousand or one hundred, the argument will be exactly the same. So why go with 30K? It has to be true, right?

 

[JaredR]

I don’t think it’s an exaggeration.

bringyou.to/apologetics/a120.htm

 

[a_Pole_ogist]

I don’t think it’s an exaggeration.

bringyou.to/apologetics/a120.htm

Thank you, JaredR. That’s what I was looking for. I do appreciate it.

 

[SyCarl]

I don’t think it’s an exaggeration.

bringyou.to/apologetics/a120.htm

It is an exaggeration. If you look at it, it shows 242 Roman Catholic denominations. This is because the same church in different countries are counted as separate even though they have the same doctrines. This is done with Protestant churches as well. And it includes non-denominational and independents as if each was a separate denomination, although Church x in Boston may have the same teachings as Church y in New York, including the teachings that each congregation is to be independent.

 

[SemperReformada]

I don’t think it’s an exaggeration.

bringyou.to/apologetics/a120.htm

Why do you think the number is accurate? The same source lists several denominations under the Catholic heading as completely seperate entities but I suspect you disagree with that fact since that would blow the unity the RCC prides herself on so much.

You could always see what you can find about this issue from a protestant perspective to get a little more balance.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I looked up the same reference viz.

bringyou.to/apologetics/a120.htm

I don’t have much doubt that there are over 30.000 Protestant denominations. There are even a few breakaway groups that call themselves Catholic but which have no communion with Rome.

I live in Australia which is not as religious or fundamentalist as the US. Yet I could go for a drive within a 16 kilometre (10 mile) radius, and I could list a number of competing mainline and miscellaneous Protestant denominations. In addition there would be some that meet in schools and would be harder to track down. But they’d regard themselves as a separate Church.

For a start I can tell you that within a 16 km radius there are Baptists, Anglicans, Wesleyan Methodists, Salvation Army, Seventh Day Adventists, Presbyterians, a number of individual churches (one of which features the word “true” in its name as though it alone has all the truth), some house churches, one breakaway Catholic Church with a school to boot, and the sects of Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons. I’m pretty sure that I could come up with at least 20 different denominations within that radius and probably more.

I have no trouble whatsoever accepting 30,000 or more Protestant denominations on a world wide basis, many of them with conflicting teachings.

 

[SemperReformada]

I looked up the same reference viz.

bringyou.to/apologetics/a120.htm

I don’t have much doubt that there are over 30.000 Protestant denominations. There are even a few breakaway groups that call themselves Catholic but which have no communion with Rome.

I live in Australia which is not as religious or fundamentalist as the US. Yet I could go for a drive within a 16 kilometre (10 mile) radius, and I could list a number of competing mainline and miscellaneous Protestant denominations. In addition there would be some that meet in schools and would be harder to track down. But they’d regard themselves as a separate Church.

For a start I can tell you that within a 16 km radius there are Baptists, Anglicans, Wesleyan Methodists, Salvation Army, Seventh Day Adventists, Presbyterians, a number of individual churches (one of which features the word “true” in its name as though it alone has all the truth), some house churches, one breakaway Catholic Church with a school to boot, and the sects of Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons. I’m pretty sure that I could come up with at least 20 different denominations within that radius and probably more.

I have no trouble whatsoever accepting 30,000 or more Protestant denominations on a world wide basis, many of them with conflicting teachings.

Have you ever read the other side of the story? While you church makes a claim that it’s infallible, your church’s apologists certainly aren’t infallible.

 

[a_Pole_ogist]

It is an exaggeration. If you look at it, it shows 242 Roman Catholic denominations. This is because the same church in different countries are counted as separate even though they have the same doctrines. …

If I look where? Where is a list with those 242 Roman Catholic Churches? I see only number and list of 5 thousand specific denominations, but I cannot find “the list”. Can you help me?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Have you ever read the other side of the story? While you church makes a claim that it’s infallible, your church’s apologists certainly aren’t infallible.

I used to be a Protestant, and although I’m a Catholic, I don’t care much for the claim of “infallibility” even though I understand it’s only been invoked twice. Christ’s statement to Peter, on which the Papal seat rests, is that what he / his office “binds will be bound in heaven, and what you loose will be loosed in heaven.” Christ was giving His church authority to bind and loose.

I disagree with the church’s ruling on the contraceptive pill for example. I think it was actually God’s idea, given at the very time population pressures were becoming a real problem in some places. Already over a billion people go to bed hungry each day according to the UN, and what’s the Church’s answer? Have more kids you can’t afford to feed. As my old Protestant pastor commented, “The church can be pretty stupid at times.”

But since the Church has made a ruling on this, it is binding, not only on earth, but also in heaven ergo. where does a Catholic woman or couple stand who used the pill but did not confess it?

However the church can also reverse this ruling, and thus loose it in heaven as well as on earth. And I just wish it would come to its senses and get the job done.

However I remember the same old Protestant pastor making the comment “When it comes to theology, Protestants couldn’t agree how far to spit.”

 

[ricko]

If I look where? Where is a list with those 242 Roman Catholic Churches? I see only number and list of 5 thousand specific denominations, but I cannot find “the list”. Can you help me?

I took the Yellow Pages and wrote down every different church. This included most but not all of the major churches. A lot of the listings are of non-mainstream churches that are local only. I figured the percentage of the churches using the population of our area. I then applied that percentage to a very low estimate of the total population of only our major cities. I got well over 20,000.

 

[Victorious]

It is an exaggeration. If you look at it, it shows 242 Roman Catholic denominations. This is because the same church in different countries are counted as separate even though they have the same doctrines. This is done with Protestant churches as well. And it includes non-denominational and independents as if each was a separate denomination, although Church x in Boston may have the same teachings as Church y in New York, including the teachings that each congregation is to be independent.

There are not 242 Roman Catholic denominations. There is only one Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is not a denomination.

The marks of the true Church are that she is one, holy, **Catholic **and apostolic. These marks are only to be found in the Roman Catholic Church.

She is one, because she is united in faith under her visible head. If you want to find the Catholic Church, look for Peter. All Catholics look to him and his successors as the Vicar of Christ on earth. Protestants as a whole have no head, even if some denominations have a head. (The Anglican Communion has the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Queen of England, but they have proven powerless to prevent rifts within the Communion.) Protestants are also not united in faith, but are forever splintering into new sects based on disagreements with doctrine or leadership. This has been going on ever since the days of Martin Luther. In view of that state of affairs, it would be surprising if there were only 30,000 Protestant denominations.

She is holy, because she was founded by Jesus Christ. The Protestant denominations came along 1,500 years (or more) too late to have been founded by Jesus Christ.

She is Catholic, because she is universal. Protestant denominations are not universal. Many, like the Anglican Communion, are characterized by nationalism or regionalism. In fact, the only universal characteristic of all Protestant communions is the belief that one shouldn’t be Catholic.

She is apostolic, because she has her faith and teachings directly from the Apostles, who had them directly from Jesus Christ. Also, all her bishops are direct successors of the Apostles, and all her priests have been ordained by these apostolic successors. The Protestant denominations abolished the priesthood, and cut themselves off from union with Peter, so their ministers do not relate back to the Apostles.

In short, you can’t lump the Catholic Church in with Protestant denominations. There is no equivalency. What is true of the Protestant denominations is not true of the Catholic Church, so that one can’t dismiss the claims of the Catholic Church as readily as one can dismiss those of any Protestant denomination. (And every Protestant must deny the claims of many denominations, since, at any given moment, he chooses one over all the others.)

 

[SyCarl]

If I look where? Where is a list with those 242 Roman Catholic Churches? I see only number and list of 5 thousand specific denominations, but I cannot find “the list”. Can you help me?

It doesn’t list the 242 Roman Catholic denominations anymore than it list all the other denominations. It groups them by church family. It puts the number of Protestants at about 9000 plus Anglicans if you count them. Once you eliminate duplication across countries that results in churches of the same type being counted more than once, as with Roman Catholic, you could probably say there are between 50-100 “different” denominations plus the independents and non-denominationals. This is still far too many but it is a far cry from 30000. With mainline Protestant churches there is a movement to unions in many countries particularly with Presbyterians, Methodists and Congregationalists joining together with each other. In addition, other churches are in full communion with others.

 

[SyCarl]

There are not 242 Roman Catholic denominations. There is only one Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is not a denomination.

I understand that but I am pointing out that the data being used to come up with 30000 Protestant denominations states there are 242 Roman Catholic denominations. As we know that there are not 242 Roman Catholic denominations, it would indicate a problem with methodology or definitions in the whole study. If the Catholic number is greatly overinflated there is no reason to suppose the Protestant figures are right either.

 

[graceandglory]

I don’t think it’s an exaggeration.

bringyou.to/apologetics/a120.htm

WOW!!! That is impressive.

:bowdown:

I looked through the listing of over 5,000 denominations, and sure enough, none of the “non-denominational” ones I attended that were “self-governing” and an entity to themselves was listed.

Having been in a pastoral family of the Assembly of God churches, I can tell you that the beliefs of the different churches are as different as the individual people are. Every year they vote on what they should continue to believe. Opinions of the voting members (pastors) run all over the board. It’s the American way.

Well done, Dave and Dave, who put that website together.
I will definitely be sharing that work with my protestant friends. Another very good reason why I became Catholic.

 

[Victorious]

I used to be a Protestant, and although I’m a Catholic, I don’t care much for the claim of “infallibility” even though I understand it’s only been invoked twice. Christ’s statement to Peter, on which the Papal seat rests, is that what he / his office “binds will be bound in heaven, and what you loose will be loosed in heaven.” Christ was giving His church authority to bind and loose.

I disagree with the church’s ruling on the contraceptive pill for example. I think it was actually God’s idea, given at the very time population pressures were becoming a real problem in some places. Already over a billion people go to bed hungry each day according to the UN, and what’s the Church’s answer? Have more kids you can’t afford to feed. As my old Protestant pastor commented, “The church can be pretty stupid at times.”

But since the Church has made a ruling on this, it is binding, not only on earth, but also in heaven ergo. where does a Catholic woman or couple stand who used the pill but did not confess it?

However the church can also reverse this ruling, and thus loose it in heaven as well as on earth. And I just wish it would come to its senses and get the job done.

However I remember the same old Protestant pastor making the comment “When it comes to theology, Protestants couldn’t agree how far to spit.”

Begging your pardon, but it looks like you still think like a Protestant, since you still think you can decide matters of faith by yourself, apart from the authority of the Church. If you do not accept the Church’s claim to be an infallible guide in matters of faith and morals, then what was the point of becoming Catholic? If you think the Church is capable of steering you wrong in matters touching the salvation of your soul, then nothing you have ever done in your life was more futile than boarding the Barque of Peter. Jesus promised to remain with the Church all days – ALL days, not SOME days – unto the consummation of the world. He also promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide her. If the Church cannot preserve intact the faith and authority He gave her, then either He failed to keep His promises – in which case He is a liar – or He did keep them, but they were of no avail – in which case He is not who He claims to be.

As for the Church’s doctrine on contraceptives: didn’t anybody teach you during your formation that as a Catholic, you are bound in conscience to accept all the Church’s doctrines, without exception, whether you like them or not? If you do not like a doctrine, or are tempted to dissent from it, then, in view of the fact that the Church speaks with the authority of Christ, you have a duty to assume that the fault lies with you, and take steps to rectify the problem. It is prideful in the extreme for a child of the Church to take the position that he is somehow wiser and more knowledgeable than the Church founded by Jesus Christ, which speaks with His authority and His voice.

 

[graceandglory]

I don’t have much doubt that there are over 30.000 Protestant denominations. There are even a few breakaway groups that call themselves Catholic but which have no communion with Rome…

That is true. For example, there are places called “Catholic Community” which aren’t in communion with Rome, as well as in my town, a “Catholic-Lutheran community.” Even if they use the word “parish,” doesn’t mean they are faithful to Rome. Sometimes people find the Nicene Creed, and think it’s cool to be catholic, (little ‘c’) because “catholic” means “universal.” So if there are a couple in my community, multiply that all over the nation, and the numbers are explainable.

 

[a_Pole_ogist]

It doesn’t list the 242 Roman Catholic denominations anymore than it list all the other denominations…

I understand that but I am pointing out that the data being used to come up with 30000 Protestant denominations states there are 242 Roman Catholic denominations…

So which is it? Either I don’t understand, or you write something which contradicts itself. Anglican Church in my home town is not necessarily the same church which is in your town. I’m a trucker, with over 3 million miles traveled in this country and I saw “Evangelical Episcopalian Churches”, and “Bible Episcopalian Churches”, and “Good News Episcopalian Churches”, and “Community Episcopalian Churches” and… and… And they are not the same denomination.

You have also churches like “Polish National Catholic Church”, which is catholic, but is not in union with the pope. So it will be rather like schismatic group, like orthodox church and this one could be rightly listed as a separate denomination. But this doesn’t mean, that native church of Karol Wojtyła, or John Paul II, is any different that church of Rome. Wojtyła was priest of the Roman Catholic Church, not the Polish National Catholic Church".

So my question is: Does the list of 33 000 denominations spells out Roman Catholic Church in every country, or just lists splinter groups like Polish National Catholic Church, which are not part of “The Catholic Church”?

 

[GKC]

So which is it? Either I don’t understand, or you write something which contradicts itself. Anglican Church in my home town is not necessarily the same church which is in your town. I’m a trucker, with over 3 million miles traveled in this country and I saw “Evangelical Episcopalian Churches”, and “Bible Episcopalian Churches”, and “Good News Episcopalian Churches”, and “Community Episcopalian Churches” and… and… And they are not the same denomination.

You have also churches like “Polish National Catholic Church”, which is catholic, but is not in union with the pope. So it will be rather like schismatic group, like orthodox church and this one could be rightly listed as a separate denomination. But this doesn’t mean, that native church of Karol Wojtyła, or John Paul II, is any different that church of Rome. Wojtyła was priest of the Roman Catholic Church, not the Polish National Catholic Church".

So my question is: Does the list of 33 000 denominations spells out Roman Catholic Church in every country, or just lists splinter groups like Polish National Catholic Church, which are not part of “The Catholic Church”?

The last time I read an explanation from the editor of that book, he counted the Roman Catholic Church, that is, those in communion with the Pope, as 236 Churches in 238 countries. The other figures are arrived at in a similar manner, by counting countries separately. In the definition used in the book, a denomination always refers to a single country. It has to do with what the book is supposed to be documenting. A good explanation, with quotes, is here:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a106.htm

GKC