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Peter_J
Guest
I’m trying to understand what was wrong with SemperReformada’s statement. The Catholic Church is infallible, Catholic apologists aren’t … seems right to me.
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Peter_J
Guest
If people are interested in citing numbers, I’ve got one that’s much better that the “30,000 denominations” statistic:
The RCC has over a billion members.
No Protestant denomination can even come close to that. (As far as I know, the largest Protestant groups each have about 50-70 million members.)
The RCC has over a billion members.
No Protestant denomination can even come close to that. (As far as I know, the largest Protestant groups each have about 50-70 million members.)
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josie_L
Guest
But the link provided by Jared takes into consideration this error, however, you forget that the CC is the only Church that has a hierarchical order that manifests itself throughout the whole world whereas Protestant denominations are not structured in this manner. For example, although Anglicans are spread out throughout the world there is not one hierarchical structure to cohesively bind all Anglicans. The Anglican Church in every country is separate from each other (and this is pretty much the case for all other protestant denominations that’s why he probably tabulated the CC the way he, Barrett, did), and furthermore within these countries you will have disparate teachings so even if they are classified as Anglicans they offer differences in their theology and practices. Baptists are another group which has sub-groups co-existing within other sub-groups which have no cohesive teachings, they are all independent from each other. I mean there may be a basis of theology which is similar but when it comes to non-essentials (a term or understanding I derived here from some protestants) there are differences. I think that there are indeed some 30 000 denominations (or at least above 20 000 if you look at the data from World Christian Trends).
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Victorious
Guest
Even if there were only five Protestant denominations, wouldn’t that be five too many, in view of the fact that Jesus wanted His disciples to be one, as He and the Father are one?
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O.S.Luke
Guest
Thirty-thousand (30,000) is hyperbole at best - and a dishonest statement in apologetics. Stretching the truth is an untruth.
It is no stretch, though, to say that it is a very sad reality in Christianity. Schisms have been happening long before the Reformation - which is sad as well.
It is no stretch, though, to say that it is a very sad reality in Christianity. Schisms have been happening long before the Reformation - which is sad as well.
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Sellers1
Guest
This is not an accurate depiction of Protestantism. This in effect would be like saying that there are many different beliefs of what Catholicism is all wrapped up into one church. If were are talking about true doctrines, traditions and beliefs of a church (which is what I am assuming the point of this thread truly is about), then there about 8 different Protestant denominations in which many others branch off from for reasons most commonly to do with conduct or traditional issues and not church doctrine per say.
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josie_L
Guest
Are you kidding me? There are thousands of independent (with varying degrees of differences in practice, traditions and theology on essentials and non-essentials) denominations. You can verify this easily by doing a bit of research.
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Sellers1
Guest
I didn’t say that there aren’t, I merely said that in doctrine and practice there are only about 8 main Protestant denominations. To say that “Rick’s Roadside Ministries” with a total number of 7 people in it is a bona fide denomination is nonsensical and it doesn’t lend any further credit to the Catholic church.
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PRmerger
Guest
Why would that be nonsensical? Rick would claim that he and his 7 congregants are following the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and interpreting the Bible correctly, unlike his previous pastor from whom he split.
And, those “8 main Protestant denominations” should have the same beliefs in all their different divisions, right? That is, each Baptist denomination should have the same doctrines on:
Baptism
Rapture
Tongues
Divorce
Abortion
Homosexuality
When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
Once saved, always saved
Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
Women pastors, no women pastors
Hell, or no hell
The Eucharist (Communion)
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
Ordination
Trinity vs. Unitarianism
Death/Soul Sleep
Church leadership, or no leadership
Head coverings or no head coverings
Health and wealth gospel
Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed)
Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Judge others, don’t judge others
What’s a sin, what is not a sin
Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help
themselves)
Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
Predestination
(adapted from a post by ProdigalSon)
Somehow, I highly doubt that. Especially since, "“local Baptist parish church is a law unto itself. Its relations with other Baptists churches, its compliance with recommendations from national church headquarters, its acceptance of any resolutions formulated at regional , national, or international conventions – all these are entirely voluntary on the part of the parish church.” (Religions of America, Leo Rosten, ed.)
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ababbidg
Guest
Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Assemblies of God, Chruch of Christ, Epsicopalian, Presbyterians, Mennonites, Amish, Quakers, Pentecostals
I could go on, but I already surpassed your claim of 8 denominations
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oberyn3
Guest
I do think there’s a bit of intellectual dishonesty going on with respect to the 30,000 denominations.
- As others have posted, many of these denominations are in full communion with one another. There are also divisions which have their origins in sociological or political as opposed to doctrinal issues. The formation of the Southern Baptist Convention had to do primarily with the issue of slavery (I’m oversimplifying, but, basically, southern baptists supported slavery, northern baptists opposed it).
- Finally, if the Catholic apologetic view is that Protestant church x splitting from Protestant church y is a negative representation of both churches (even though neither make claims to be the “one, true, church”), then how can that be reconciled with the fact that all of these 30,000 denominations can trace their origins back, by however many degrees, to a schism with Rome? By this logic, wouldn’t these schisms reflect poorly on the Roman Catholic Church? If not, why not?
- Why couldn’t a non-Christian point to this overall disunity as a “black mark” against Christianity in the same manner that Roman Catholics are doing with respect to “Protestantism”?
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happilycatholic
Guest
We really only have two options to look at here:
1.) Christ left a perfect Church with imperfect members.
2.) Christ left an imperfect Church with perfect members.
What does this mean? There has to be a ‘definite’ in this equation. Christ would not have left us with happenstance for salvation. “Well if someone happens to “get it” then they can start their own church with this revelation”.
Either imperfect people leave the perfect Church or perfect people who hold the “truth” leave an imperfect Church. There are NO perfect people who hold the Truth. Only the perfect Church holds the Truth.
Even one breakoff from the catholic Church is a position of imperfection, but not within the Church. It is imperfection within people. The Church cannot be anything *but *perfect.
Why would Christ leave us with an imperfect foundation on which to base the survival of His people and the very salvation of their souls to Heaven?
…DID NOT HAPPEN.
1.) Christ left a perfect Church with imperfect members.
2.) Christ left an imperfect Church with perfect members.
What does this mean? There has to be a ‘definite’ in this equation. Christ would not have left us with happenstance for salvation. “Well if someone happens to “get it” then they can start their own church with this revelation”.
Either imperfect people leave the perfect Church or perfect people who hold the “truth” leave an imperfect Church. There are NO perfect people who hold the Truth. Only the perfect Church holds the Truth.
Even one breakoff from the catholic Church is a position of imperfection, but not within the Church. It is imperfection within people. The Church cannot be anything *but *perfect.
Why would Christ leave us with an imperfect foundation on which to base the survival of His people and the very salvation of their souls to Heaven?
…DID NOT HAPPEN.
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oberyn3
Guest
or
3.) No particular church or its members are perfect. From that standpoint, the one, true Church is not an organization, denomination, building, or series of buildings. It’s a body of believers. Christ, recognizing man’s imperfection, didn’t make salvation dependent upon membership in one particular “church” as opposed to another.
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PRmerger
Guest
I am quite skeptical of this assertion. Do you have any evidence that contradicts the claim that each Baptist church is a law until itself?
“Each local Baptist parish church is a law unto itself. Its relations with other Baptists churches, its compliance with recommendations from national church headquarters, its acceptance of any resolutions formulated at regional , national, or international conventions – all these are entirely voluntary on the part of the parish church.” (Religions of America, Leo Rosten, ed.)
Or that the Assemblies of God in Union, MO has the same doctrines as the Assemblies of God in Birmingham, England? How could they be in full communion with one another as they have no central authority?
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happilycatholic
Guest
Then what you are saying is Christ left a message but left it to people that may or may not be able to relay that message precisely?
Edit:
Gosh, I’m wondering why the need for apostles and/or prophets at all? If a person were going to believe what they want, what was the purpose to send Christ to give His life? We could figure it out from the Bible. Christ didn’t come to write the Bible friends, He came to give His life so that we could live. We don’t do that by simply interpreting the Bible whatever way the wind blows.
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happilycatholic
Guest
…and this reasoning is the reason for the alleged 30k+ denominations.
It only takes one person with this thought (no disrespect intended) to form a denomination. This is why each of them is an imperfection.
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PRmerger
Guest
I think you are misunderstanding why Catholics point to the existence of (now) over 40,000Christian denominations. It is not necessarily to claim a “black mark” against Protestantism.
It is to testify that if one has no authority–except one’s self --in determining doctrine as shown in Scripture, you will end up with 40,000 different interpretations. There has to be an infallible guardian to the interpretation of God’s Word, else, as you can see, the result is chaos!
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oberyn3
Guest
I don’t see how you can simultaneously describe the existence of these numerous denominations as “chaos” but then say you’re not claiming it’s a black mark against Protestantism.
The African Methodist Episcopal Church is not engaged in a doctrinal war with the Quakers. The Southern Baptist Convention has not declared a jihad against Missionary Baptists.
These churches (small “c”) and denominations co-exist peacefully.
To what “chaos” are you referring?
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oberyn3
Guest
These different denominations don’t “believe whatever they want”. Their beliefs and traditions differ from yours and in mine, in many cases. The difference between us is that you’re the only claiming that your beliefs are the only ones which contain validity.Then what you are saying is Christ left a message but left it to people that may or may not be able to relay that message precisely?
Edit:
Gosh, I’m wondering why the need for apostles and/or prophets at all? If a person were going to believe what they want, what was the purpose to send Christ to give His life?
And, to a non-Christian, the differences in these beliefs are quite minor indeed.
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PRmerger
Guest
Doctrinal chaos. Confusion about the Truth. Very, very sad and definitely Hell rejoices at this chaos.To what “chaos” are you referring?
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