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4Squarebaby
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True guess that’s why, 30, 30 thousand or 30 million doesn’t really concern me.If you are like I am, you probably don’t care either.
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elvisman
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It is not enough to simply believe that to be a part of the body of Christ.
**Even the demons believe in God and tremble (James 2:19). **
You must be baptized into his body in order to be saved (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:37-38, Acts 22:16, Rom. 6: 3-4, Gal. 3:27, Eph. 4:5, 1 Pet. 3:21).
You must obey the word of God and do his will in order to be saved (Matt. 7:21, John 15:10).
You must take up your cross daily in order to be saved (Luke 9:23).
You must eat of the flesh of Jesus and drink his blood to be saved (John 6:30-70).
You must endure to the end to be saved (Matt. 24:13).
You must forgive in order to be save (Matt. 18:21-35).
"Easy-believism" will get you nowhere and nowhere in the context of Scripture does it endorse “Lone-Ranger” Christianity.
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elvisman
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**Read John 17 - the entire chapter. **
The night before he died - Jesus prayed fervently for the UNITY of his Church.
This was of MAJOR concern to Jesus - why shouldn’t it concern you?
Do you know something he doesn’t?
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jpaul1953
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Daer Obeyn,
I am Catholic and sincerely appreciate your going to daily Catholic Mass to get and stay closer to the Trinity. I would do what you are doing if the situations were reversed.
I am sorry that the original Reformists, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodists, Presbyterian, and forgive me if I am leaving out any Reformists who basically belong to this group. Any knowledgeable Catholic knows that the Church’s hierarchy was in need of reform when certain protesters lead the way. Many Catholics believe that the original Protesters may have helped save the Church by bringing these problems to light. So, in an earnest way, we, as Catholics, may owe a debt of gratitude to these Reformists.
We lean on these continual break-ups of non-denominational and denominational churches as an opportunity to defend that the Church as still one unified Church, with several rites which have some differences. This also stands for the original reformists. The churches I listed above (forgetting some I’m sure-forgive me for that) have evolved over time, negating some Catholic strongly held beliefs and identifiying with others, but they haven’t done this continual splitting from themselves as do the lesser know congregations.
I believe your churches should be kept apart from all of the Protesters of latter times who continual break apart from themselves, using the Catholic Church for their stance against all that is wrong. Putting it boldly, your churches have much more in common with the Catholic Church than all the 30,000+ ‘break-aways from themselves’ congregations.
I think that someday this will be recognized: The Church (and all her Rites) , The First Protestant Reformists (the list which is duely longer than mine above), and the Latter-Day Reforming Protesters (30,000+ splits from themselves).
I hope this is non-offensive, but I believe it may soon become necessary. May we permit God to guide us all to the truth.
jpaul1953
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jpaul1953
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Dear Richard Kastner,
It appears so easy the way some see Salvation. So simple, so sweet… The Catholic Church tells her people that Christ never made it that easy if you take the whole Bible, not pick and choose verses that help validate the beliefs one cherishes.
Many non-Catholics claim they know the Bible. Many Bible-reading Catholics know this to be false. Jesus was complex with his teachings and sometimes very direct. Yes, in one teaching He says there are only two commandments: Love God above all and Love thy Neighbor as thyself. Seems easy enough. Read the way Luke writes it in Luke 10:25-28. Isn’t as easy anymore. It’s the complete giving of ourselves, not just when we feel like it. I know I don’t do it perfect, but I know I must strive for it as Luke’s passage commands by humbly asking for guidance and forgiveness.
I, as a somewhat informed Catholic, know that the more I know about what Jesus taught the more chance I have of seeing God throught the eyes of a child, even as I grow older and further from my youth. What does a child do? A child depends, obeys, and trusts his parents, which Jesus states here as the greatest form of humility, the love a child has for his/her parents and the only way to the Father. Very powerful and very impossible to do if ones does forget one’s place in the scheme of things.
Jesus teaches forgiveness of sins followed by repentance for committing sins in the first place, not sinning and forgiving, sinning and forgiving time and time again. Read 1John2:1-6. That’s not so easy is it. Many non-Catholics I know always rely on Jesus’ mercy to accept their individual shortcomings, saying that Jesus died for all my sins past, present, and future. Really… Most of what I hear Jesus saying is: “I forgive you your sins, go, sin no more.”
Most Catholics know that Jesus makes demands on us. Such as, telling us in paraphrase that whoever makes one of His children sin would be better off putting a noose around his neck tied to a rock and throw himself into the river. That’s not very forgiving. Jesus is telling this man that he is better off committing suicide than causing one of God’s children to sin. That’s pretty strong words from the Savior of the world.
I hope this might help one see that if Jesus’ teachings were all that easy, we wouldn’t need a Bible so large. It should be just one paragraph, but it’s not.
May God guide us to the truth always.
jpaul1953
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traillius
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even if there were only 100 denominations, that would be 99 too many. Like Mcleod said,
in the end, “there can be only one” the rest will be absorbed or fade away.
in the end, “there can be only one” the rest will be absorbed or fade away.
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happilycatholic
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I would have put the emphasis here:
Another reason why I am catholic. I see more catholicism in the Scriptures than any other religious denomination in the entire world.
But yes, that’s the general idea.
For noncatholics: My statements do not imply:
This is why I am catholic and why you should be too. Please don’t read anything into my statements that isn’t there.
I am simply stating why I chose catholicism. I’m sure others have their reasons and noncatholics have their reasons for making the choices they make.
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happilycatholic
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Hi Peter
Well, if we are to understand and accept the process of catechism, then we are basically surrendering the very formation of our faith to the Church and doing exactly that.
Further, if we are to understand and accept the process of confession (I still like the term) and absolution, then we are surrendering the state of grace of our souls to the Church. We actually surrender all to the Church.
I was catechized to believe that the Church is synonamous with the Holy Spirit. So in surrendering to the Church I am surrendering to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is the very reason we receive Communion.
Here is an excerpt (one of many) that might help:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Three, Life in Christ
II. THE FORMATION OF CONSCIENCE
Canon 1785: In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.
**
Here are some other Scriptural quotes, some from Christ himself:
“But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” 1 Timothy 3:15
“Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.” Romans 13:1-2
“so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities in the heavens.” Ephesians 3:10
“When you read this you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to human beings in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit” Ephesians 3:4-6
If we don’t put the Church’s authority first, who’s authority are we putting first?
Peace Be With You
~HC
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happilycatholic
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Yes, exactly why I said, “I believe” and did not incinute that you or anyone else should.
Then the statement wouldn’t apply to those such as yourself.
Certainly.
Okay, here’s where people go wrong. It would not be simple interpretation, especially if when you read the Scripture, you don’t understand or don’t agree. Believe it or not, there are people in RCIA (catechism) who really actually don’t believe in the authority of the Church or that it is the True Church of Christ. But most do after they attend for a few weeks. A lot of folks begin RCIA because a spouse is catholic and they are either curious or I know of a few that actually joined to prove their spouses wrong. In other words, to learn more ammunition to use against their spouse. But they ended up believing! So that pretty much rules out simple interpretation.I was not born into or educated in Roman Catholicism. For me to choose that path, would, by definition, require a personal interpretation of scripture. Is the argument that interpretation is bad because it leads to schism and doctrinal “chaos”, but good if and only if it leads to acceptance of the doctrine that interpretation is bad.
Interpretation first, then surrender is a protestant point-of-view, IMHO. That is why we believe in infant baptism and most protestants do not. For catholics there is only one Way. It doesn’t require interpretation because it doesn’t require agreement subsequent to interpretation. Contrary to popular opinion of most catholics on this site (which by the way seem to be converts not unlike myself) it is not required to agree it IS required to surrender. THAT is what makes you truly catholic. That is what Martin Luther lacked.
If I read the entire Bible and try to base my faith choice on my interpretation, I may want to be a part of every Christian church known to mankind or maybe none of them. I could discern that I don’t need a church-based faith foundation at all.
The Church has never said an individuall cannot interpret the Scripture. If that were the case then you could never read the Bible on your own. Understanding and comprehension both require interpretation. It’s not the interpretation part but what you DO with that interpretation that matters.
The same as when Christ was present in the flesh. If you were to witness a miracle would you interpret that as mere magic or slight of hand or would you step outside of your own ability to comprehend and just accept and surrender to Him and his Truth as it is taught? The Apostles had to take in some really far-fetched stuff and truly believe that it was the work of God and they could question as long as they surrendered to Christ in the end.
Catholics do that. We are free to interpret all we want to, in fact we are encouraged to do so in catechism. It’s part of our discernment process most of all. But, we must use the teachings of the Church in order to do that. If we cannot surrender to the Church and what she teaches, then we have to look at that and discern whether catholicism is right for us at that period of our lives.
I did that and everything about the Holy Spirit as was revealed through Christ made sense to me more than ever. But again, that was my faith journey.
That was an attempt to admit my own unworthyness. I’m not great at humorTrust me, I don’t think there are many non-catholics who think this is the case.
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oberyn3
Guest
Then the statement wouldn’t apply to those such as yourself.
I see what you’re saying here.
I think I understand you here, too. However, for someone not born into the Roman Catholic faith, wouldn’t you agree that some sort of interpretation would be required before surrender? That is, the interpretation required to even understand the authority and the basis of the authority to which one is surrendering.Interpretation first, then surrender is a protestant point-of-view, IMHO. That is why we believe in infant baptism and most protestants do not. For catholics there is only one Way. It doesn’t require interpretation because it doesn’t require agreement subsequent to interpretation. Contrary to popular opinion of most catholics on this site (which by the way seem to be converts not unlike myself) it is not required to agree it IS required to surrender. THAT is what makes you truly catholic. That is what Martin Luther lacked.
True. These are the choices being made by Christians every day. If an apologetic points someone, like my maternal grandfather who was raised baptist, to Matt. 16:13-25, wouldn’t they be asking this person to interpret before surrendering? That is, the person brought up in the baptist tradition would have either interpreted on his own or been taught a different interpretation of the meaning of “upon this rock, I will build my Church”.
See above.
I’m still “stuck”, as it were, on two points:
- There are those who will really never be called upon to surrender;
- That very act of surrender requires a particular interpretation. This interpretation can be influenced by the traditions in which one was raised and/or the particular aspects of the individual faith journey one has taken.
I know. I was just making an attempt at humor myself.That was an attempt to admit my own unworthyness. I’m not great at humor
I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts, and you’ve definitely given me a great deal of food for thought.
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Peter_J
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Scratch my last question. Grammatical misunderstanding (when you said "That must come first … " I misunderstood what the That was).
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Peter_J
Guest
You bring up a good question, although I don’t see it so much as a response to happilycatholic’s argument, but more as a larger question that’s faced by … well pretty much all bible-believing Christians.
Put another way, the question is how we are to understand 2 Peter 1:20, “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” (How can a person decide which church or denomination is the correct one without somehow using private interpretation?)
I won’t give you my thoughts on that question at this moment, but I am interested in such a discussion. In fact, perhaps we should start a new thread for it?
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happilycatholic
Guest
Well, let’s try a different angle. Here’s an interesting definition of ‘interpretion’ with my emphasis on the bold part:
- The act of interpreting; **explanation of what is obscure; translation; version; construction; as, the interpretation of a foreign language, of a dream, or of an enigma. **
There are so many things that are not fully revealed to us as individuals. These things were in fact revealed to the Apostles and Prophets like Abraham and Moses. We as catholics rely on the Church to interpret those things in Scripture that may have required intimate knowledge of Christ to understand, like the Eucharist. It’s something like “believing” in the 10 Commandments. No one questions that, but if you are going to question the Eucharist as the actual presence of Christ, why not question that the Commandments were actually written by God’s own finger? Maybe Moses carved them and just brought them down off the mountain. Why believe that Christ was God in the Flesh at all? We have no intimate knowledge of Christ as a human being in the flesh. We rely on our Church’s interpretation of Christ. If you are a Jew, your church’s interpretation of Christ is much different.
These are the things that created so many denominations. People picking and choosing what they will believe. Catholics don’t do that. (obedient ones anyway
) They let the Church do it.Christ gave himself to his Apostles at the Last Supper. He told them this would be a way to have him with them always and to remember him in that way. As catholics, we trust the Church to know that Christ meant this literally and not only symbolically because Peter was there. Because we truly believe the Church has passed from hand to hand from Peter, we believe this intimate relationship has never been broken because this is what Christ told them.
We as lay people do not have that revealed Truth. We do not have that intimate knowledge and so our interpretation of Mtt. 26:26 may be “obscured” while the Church’s interpretation is not. And to that end, we as catholics surrender to the Church’s interpretation and therefore not our own. So in this case individual interpretation does not matter when it comes to salvation. The Truth is the Truth. Surrender to it, or not. That is choice. It’s all about free will.
This is a sticky one.
Cause if you’re talking about a Baptist apologist, I doubt he would accept your grandfather’s interpretation if your grandfather said, "I believe Christ was telling Peter that his Church would be built upon him and all churches should be called “The Church of Peter”.
Nope, the Baptist preacher would gasp and probably sweat a little and proceed to tell your grandfather how wrong his interpretation was. The Baptist preacher would only accept “the Baptist” interpretation and would probably try to steer your grandfather in the correct direction.
The same with a catholic apologist. Same scenario, different outcome of course
. But everyone is catechised or taught. No one picks up a Bible and says, well every single thing in here sounds Methodist so I’ll be a Methodist. Although something like that does occur. We go to church to learn, not because we know it all and just want to be in church, or I hope not anyway. We all depend and trust our churches to reveal the Truth to us.Well catholics go for that reason and one other, to receive the Body and Blood of our Savior and let Him rest in our bodies until the next mass. It is the most beautiful feeling ever. Just like hopefully all Christians, Catholics *live *our faith but we do that through our sacrements and we do good “deeds” through our community. We do this because it is what Christ told his Apostles to do. Some non-catholics see the sacaments as “works”. I don’t see how that’s possible. Only if accepting a gift is work.
Many denominations have taken certain steps out of that sacremental life because of the way they interpret Scripture. I’m just more comfortable with keeping them in.
I like the gifts. AND I like the fact that I don’t work for salvation, I find it through the gifts from God. The deeds I do are separate from my sacramental life. They are good deeds, not works.If you are never exposed to catholicism or don’t commit to it, then I believe you have a different faith relationship with God. I don’t however believe it flawed, only incomplete
(please don’t be mad).Continued.
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happilycatholic
Guest
The first one I sort of answered with the last comment. This second is certainly true. I guess that is why our faith *is *a journey and not a destination. Salvation is our destination so we never stop our journey onward toward that goal.
I truly believe as long as we are moving foward with God sternly in your sight, he will guide us to the Truth.
Oh,I know. I was just making an attempt at humor myself.
I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts, and you’ve definitely given me a great deal of food for thought.
Awe, thanks.
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happilycatholic
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Mannyfit75
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I found something from that link from bringtoyou.to that will clarify the Catholic Church having 242 denominations.
The article in bringyou.to/apologetics/a106.htm#Catholics states,
Compared to Protestant Denomination, there isn’t a central authority at all. Each have a unique set of beliefs concerning Christian doctrine on the issue on faith and morals. They aren’t unified but divided because of the Protestant Doctrine of Sola Scripture.
The unity in the Catholic Church remains the same. It is the same set of beliefs, same worship centered on the Eucharistic Liturgy (Mass in the West) or Divine Liturgy in the East.
The article in bringyou.to/apologetics/a106.htm#Catholics states,
In the top of the article, it gives some of the list.
You can read the article for yourself. As a single unit, the Catholic Church is only One Church. It isn’t a denomination. What you actually see is a Rites that breaks down the Catholic Church into Latin Rite (West) and Eastern Rites (East). These Churches united with the Pope.
Compared to Protestant Denomination, there isn’t a central authority at all. Each have a unique set of beliefs concerning Christian doctrine on the issue on faith and morals. They aren’t unified but divided because of the Protestant Doctrine of Sola Scripture.
The unity in the Catholic Church remains the same. It is the same set of beliefs, same worship centered on the Eucharistic Liturgy (Mass in the West) or Divine Liturgy in the East.
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oberyn3
Guest
Speaking from the perspective of one who was neither born nor raised catholic, the very act of “letting the Church do it” would require picking and choosing what to believe and what not to believe. The irony being that it would have been my understanding and interpretation of the Episcopalian faith (seeking answers as to the use of tradition and Scripture in my life) that would have led me to that point.These are the things that created so many denominations. People picking and choosing what they will believe. Catholics don’t do that. (obedient ones anyway
I understand, and that doesn’t anger me at all.If you are never exposed to catholicism or don’t commit to it, then I believe you have a different faith relationship with God. I don’t however believe it flawed, only incomplete
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happilycatholic
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oberyn3
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happilycatholic
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be asking those questions (do I agree with the church) to begin with.happilycatholic;5452037 said:
Ha! You are tough…or stubborn…or … tough
Well, I give. I officially call “Uncle”. (even though I don’t really know what that means)
I’m not sure what you mean by these comments, but I think what you are getting at is that there may be several “breakoffs” of say Baptism that because of local influences (right word?) they may be Missionary Baptist or Southern Baptist or even Primitive Baptist. Is that what you mean?
But what I think folks on here are saying is that from a catholic POV, any break from the Holy Spirit is not an appropriate one. We believe the Church *is *the embodiment of the Holy Spirit, so a break from that…well again would be bad and in that case it doesn’t matter if one breaks from the Church as an individual or as a group such as in a Denomination.
However dot dot dot
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