30 thousand denominations?

[oberyn3]

happily catholic,

I should hasten to add that the maternal side of my family are Baptists. I would personally have a great many problems with the emphasis on congregationalist polity, etc. I prefer the “via media” of the Episcopal Church, although I can certainly see where the accusation of our wanting to have it both ways comes from.

My own exposure to the Catholic Church has certainly affected the manner in which I approach my faith and worship, from encouraging me to delve deeper into the history of the Anglican Tradition, to using prayer beads (an Anglican rosary), to a whole host of other things. This forum has certainly helped to disabuse me of many erroneous notions I had about Catholicism.

 

[happilycatholic]

Yes, but I was also referring to the 30,000 number including a lot of “denominations” that are simply churches with local autonomy but who operate according to the same doctrine. For example, the two Southern Baptist churches that are in neighboring towns but don’t differ doctrinally and in fact are members of a Convention that recognizes local autonomy and encourages “church planting” to begin with. I still say that citing this as evidence of doctrinal “chaos” is intellectually dishonest.

Yes “doctrinal chaos” is a little harsh. I don’t think the Church even looks at it in that light. (at least post dark ages anyway )

I really liked the way one of our Deacons explained it in our catechism: The Church is like an umbrella and all Christian religions believing in Baptism by water and through the Trinity come under that umbrella. He even went as far as to say that those who had never known God as we know God will come under that umbrella and that is why we have the duty to minister to those folks.

For the life of me I can’t find a single dependable source for the actual numbers of denominations. I wonder if anything official exists. There has to be something. There are people that thrive on counting things, this one should be right up there with the number of divorces.

 

[oberyn3]

Yes “doctrinal chaos” is a little harsh. I don’t think the Church even looks at it in that light. (at least post dark ages anyway )

I really liked the way one of our Deacons explained it in our catechism: The Church is like an umbrella and all Christian religions believing in Baptism by water and through the Trinity come under that umbrella. He even went as far as to say that those who had never known God as we know God will come under that umbrella and that is why we have the duty to minister to those folks.

I like that one. A few weeks ago the pastor at the Catholic Church at which I attend mass explained his view to me that all of us will be Catholics (with a large “c”) in heaven. We both smiled at that one. Again, I have no problem with someone feeling that, as a non-catholic, my relationship with God is “incomplete”. Catholics should feel that their Church has it right.

 

[happilycatholic]

I like that one. A few weeks ago the pastor at the Catholic Church at which I attend mass explained his view to me that all of us will be Catholics (with a large “c”) in heaven. We both smiled at that one. Again, I have no problem with someone feeling that, as a non-catholic, my relationship with God is “incomplete”. Catholics should feel that their Church has it right.

To comment on this post as well as the previous one, both my parents are Baptists. I was raised Baptist. I can only pray for the kind of devotion my Dad has. I aspire to be like him in faith.

And by the way, no matter what anyone else thinks, I hope you do feel complete in your relationship with God.

Actually, catholics don’t normally capitalize the word ‘catholic’ but do capitalize ‘Church’ because we put the emphasis on Christ’s work, not on us as a group. Catholic, as you probably know just means “universal” that’s not special in and of itself and actually does infer all of Christ’s followers. Which also speaks to the meaning of what the pastor was saying. He undoubtedly meant, we’ll all worship in the same way in Heaven. There will be no “catholic” so I don’t see a real need to capitalize it. There will only be one Church and no need to set it apart.

See, that’s the problem I have with denominations now. If there will only be one in Heaven, that means there’s really only one now. Which wouldn’t matter accept there are too many ways of doing things. It’s not what we call ourselves so much as the things we are doing (or maybe not doing). I can’t help but believe we should all be doing the same things under the same shepard.

 

[jpaul1953]

Hi Peter

Well, if we are to understand and accept the process of catechism, then we are basically surrendering the very formation of our faith to the Church and doing exactly that.

Further, if we are to understand and accept the process of confession (I still like the term) and absolution, then we are surrendering the state of grace of our souls to the Church. We actually surrender all to the Church.

I was catechized to believe that the Church is synonamous with the Holy Spirit. So in surrendering to the Church I am surrendering to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is the very reason we receive Communion.

Here is an excerpt (one of many) that might help:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Three, Life in Christ

---

II. THE FORMATION OF CONSCIENCE

Canon 1785: In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.
**
Here are some other Scriptural quotes, some from Christ himself:

“But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” 1 Timothy 3:15

“Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.” Romans 13:1-2

“so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities in the heavens.” Ephesians 3:10

“When you read this you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to human beings in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit” Ephesians 3:4-6

If we don’t put the Church’s authority first, who’s authority are we putting first?

Peace Be With You

~HC

Dear Peter J,

Where is this authority to be positioned -in the front, the middle, or the end. Well, when one builds a building, one must start at the bottom. The capstone, the first rock, and then continue on. Jesus always uses analogies of life to allow people to visualize what he is going to do, like His use of parables.

Why would Jesus intend on issuing authority to someone to use 1000 or 2000-years later. Some people are just trying to think so much more than was intended by Jesus.

If I say to you, let’s play basketball. You know that I mean now, but keep thinking and you might think I mean someday, by saying I never said right now. All this thinkings to illegitamize the Church. It’s ludicris.

Most protestants’ congregations would collapse under such scrutiny, most I say probably all. But we still stand because Christ said we would, His Church would always prevail. What’s to say the scrutiny (persecution) from these Protestants isn’t exactly what Christ said would not destroy His Church. We are stronger because of their persecution. They always fight us indivdually. We stand united against the individual persecution.

Make God continue to bless Christ’s one and only Church.

Pray for the Pope who fractured his wrist in the tub today, please.

May God guide us always.

jpaul1953

 

[happilycatholic]

Dear Peter J,

Where is this authority to be positioned -in the front, the middle, or the end. Well, when one builds a building, one must start at the bottom. The capstone, the first rock, and then continue on. Jesus always uses analogies of life to allow people to visualize what he is going to do, like His use of parables.

Why would Jesus intend on issuing authority to someone to use 1000 or 2000-years later. Some people are just trying to think so much more than was intended by Jesus.

If I say to you, let’s play basketball. You know that I mean now, but keep thinking and you might think I mean someday, by saying I never said right now. All this thinkings to illegitamize the Church. It’s ludicris.

Most protestants’ congregations would collapse under such scrutiny, most I say probably all. But we still stand because Christ said we would, His Church would always prevail. What’s to say the scrutiny (persecution) from these Protestants isn’t exactly what Christ said would not destroy His Church. We are stronger because of their persecution. They always fight us indivdually. We stand united against the individual persecution.

Make God continue to bless Christ’s one and only Church.

Pray for the Pope who fractured his wrist in the tub today, please.

May God guide us always.

jpaul1953

hi jpaul:

He already agreed with us.

God Bless!

 

[oberyn3]

To comment on this post as well as the previous one, both my parents are Baptists. I was raised Baptist. I can only pray for the kind of devotion my Dad has. I aspire to be like him in faith.

That’s the same way I feel about the faith my grandfather held.

Actually, catholics don’t normally capitalize the word ‘catholic’ but do capitalize ‘Church’ because we put the emphasis on Christ’s work, not on us as a group. Catholic, as you probably know just means “universal” that’s not special in and of itself and actually does infer all of Christ’s followers. Which also speaks to the meaning of what the pastor was saying. He undoubtedly meant, we’ll all worship in the same way in Heaven. There will be no “catholic” so I don’t see a real need to capitalize it. There will only be one Church and no need to set it apart.

I think that’s what he meant, too. As I said, I certainly have no problem with that concept.

See, that’s the problem I have with denominations now. If there will only be one in Heaven, that means there’s really only one now. Which wouldn’t matter accept there are too many ways of doing things. It’s not what we call ourselves so much as the things we are doing (or maybe not doing). I can’t help but believe we should all be doing the same things under the same shepard.

Maybe this is a rationalization on my part, but I think that, even if we were doing things together on Earth, we would change our manner of doing things in Heaven. Not because what we’re doing on Earth would be knowingly “wrong”, just that our human understanding is imperfect or incomplete. I don’t expect a liturgy in English a choir trying their best but sometimes singing off-key, folks walking in late because they overslept or were stuck in traffic, etc.

From that standpoint, I have no problem if I reach Heaven and discover that my Church was farther from that perfect truth than someone else’s. I just want to get there to find out.

 

[happilycatholic]

From that standpoint, I have no problem if I reach Heaven and discover that my Church was farther from that perfect truth than someone else’s. I just want to get there to find out.

AMEN!! :bounce:

 

[Peter_J]

Hi guys. I didn’t have much of a change to check this thread yesterday, but I did a little catching-up this morning.

See, in catholicism there really is only one choice and it is the first one you make:

Is the Church correct?

On the contrary, in protestantism it always seems to be:

Do I agree with the church?

I think there’s a perception problem between Catholics and Protestants.

What I mean is, people on each side (I don’t mean every single Protestant or every single Catholic, but quite a lot of people on both sides) look at the other side and say: "The difference between us and them, is that we look at something and ask ‘Is this true?’ whereas they look at something and ask ‘Do I agree with this?’ " (Sorry for the nested quotation marks. )

In reality both sides are interested in the truth.

 

[Sellers1]

Read John 17 - the entire chapter.
The night before he died - Jesus prayed fervently for the UNITY of his Church.
This was of MAJOR concern to Jesus - why shouldn’t it concern you?

Do you know something he doesn’t?

Yes he does want his Church to be unified Elvisman. So, stop over doing it with all the Mary garb and cease from this unbiblical practice of thinking the pope is Christ on Earth and start thinking of being unified with Christians who staunchly worship the one true soverign God and focus upon nothing else especially when it is wrongful to do so.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes he does want his Church to be unified Elvisman. So, stop over doing it with all the Mary garb and cease from this unbiblical practice of thinking the pope is Christ on Earth and start thinking of being unified with Christians who staunchly worship the one true soverign God and focus upon nothing else especially when it is wrongful to do so.

You have been poorly educated about Catholic teaching, Sellers. Nowhere do we teach that the Pope is Christ on earth.

And, how could we be unifed with Christians when there’s 40,000 different interpretations of the very same Scriptures??

 

[Peter_J]

… start thinking of being unified with Christians who staunchly worship the one true soverign God

So then, you believe that we Catholics haven’t already started doing so? You really need to read Lumen Gentium and Unitatis Redintegratio.

 

[Sellers1]

You have been poorly educated about Catholic teaching, Sellers. Nowhere do we teach that the Pope is Christ on earth.

Then it puts me in the same company as some of the Catholics here who have made this statement.

You say 40,000, others have said 20,000 and 30,000. Which one is it?

 

[PRmerger]

Sellers1:
Sellers, if you don’t quote in the usual manner I cannot quote you in response, and let you know to what I’m responding.

Anyhoo…just because someone, even a Catholic, says the CC teaches something, does not mean that’s what the CC teaches.

In fact, I could say that I read that a preacher in your church teaches that Mary was Immaculately Conceived, but that doesn’t mean that your congregation believes it.

I recommend checking with the Vatican website or the US Conference of Catholic Bishops website, and, of course, the Cathechism to see what the CC really teaches.

 

[PRmerger]

Sellers1:
Your Total “Christian Denominations” Count for today is** 40872 ** :bigyikes:
Please pray for Christian unity (John 17; Eph 4:5; Matt 16:18) Source: here.

Do you want a specific list of Protestant denominations? Here is 5000+ (also from above source)

And, just for the sake of argument, let’s say it’s “only” 5000. Isn’t that too many denominations that have read the very same Scriptures that you’ve read and disagree with your conclusions?

God is not a polygamist. He can’t be married to 5000 churches.

 

[Jean_1958]

There is a widely accepted number of over 30 000 Christian denominations in the world, but where this number comes from? I heard one time that it is from Oxford Christian Encyclopedia, but what is it (if that’s actually source of that number)? Who publish it? Is that protestant source, or non Christian at all?

And I apologize if that question already was discussed on the forums. If so maybe someone can help me find it? Thanks.

Hi,

I think this is what you are looking for:

gcts.edu/lifelong_learners/worldchristianencyclopedia

Gordon-Cornwell Theological Seminary is protestant.

Jean

 

[happilycatholic]

Hi guys. I didn’t have much of a change to check this thread yesterday, but I did a little catching-up this morning.

I think there’s a perception problem between Catholics and Protestants.

What I mean is, people on each side (I don’t mean every single Protestant or every single Catholic, but quite a lot of people on both sides) look at the other side and say: "The difference between us and them, is that we look at something and ask ‘Is this true?’ whereas they look at something and ask ‘Do I agree with this?’ " (Sorry for the nested quotation marks. )

In reality both sides are interested in the truth.

You are absolutely correct. It’s just that catholics surrender to something bigger than their own desire for the Truth. It’s the belief that the Church we follow is the Church of Christ our Savior and that it is all-knowing. It is the belief that because the Church is the embodiment of the Holy Spirit, that it cannot be incorrect in matters of faith and morals.

We stake the state of our souls on it instead of on our own particular beliefs.

 

[elvisman]

Yes he does want his Church to be unified Elvisman. So, stop over doing it with all the Mary garb and cease from this unbiblical practice of thinking the pope is Christ on Earth and start thinking of being unified with Christians who staunchly worship the one true soverign God and focus upon nothing else especially when it is wrongful to do so.

Where do you get your weird beliefs about the Church?

First of all, honoring the Mother of God is not “Mary garb-age”. I wouldn’t want to stand in front of Jesus on the Day of Judgement and say that those who honored his mother engaged in “Mary garb-age”. It’s offensive to Catholics to hear that sort of rubbish and infinitely more offensive to Jesus to hear it about his mother from one of his so-called “followers”.

**Secondly - who said the Pope is Christ? Certainly not the Church. **
Maybe, you ought to do a little more homework before making these ridiculous statements.
For starters, read Acts 9:4-5. this is where Jesus identifies his very self with his Church:
**He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" **
**He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. **

NOWHERE in this passage does he say, "Why are you persecuting my Church?", or, "My thousands of churches?" He says, “Why are you persecuting ME?”**
**Jesus established ONE Church. Every single Protestant denomination is a divorced faction from that ONE Church. **
Don’t believe me? Study your history.

 

[happilycatholic]

Where do you get your weird beliefs about the Church?

First of all, honoring the Mother of God is not “Mary garb-age”. I wouldn’t want to stand in front of Jesus on the Day of Judgement and say that those who honored his mother engaged in “Mary garb-age”. It’s offensive to Catholics to hear that sort of rubbish and infinitely more offensive to Jesus to hear it about his mother from one of his so-called “followers”.

Secondly - who said the Pope is Christ? Certainly not the Church.
Maybe, you ought to do a little more homework before making these ridiculous statements.

Hallelujah!!!
:bounce:

 

[happilycatholic]

Yes he does want his Church to be unified Elvisman. So, stop over doing it with all the Mary garb and cease from this unbiblical practice of thinking the pope is Christ on Earth and start thinking of being unified with Christians who staunchly worship the one true soverign God and focus upon nothing else especially when it is wrongful to do so.

NOBODY said the Pope is Christ on earth read below for what the Church *actually *is which is the embodiment of the Holy Spirit:

1. Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD. 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.