P
PRmerger
Guest
So how do you know, except through the Catholic Church, that Christ was divine?
- Status
P
Peter_Plato
Guest
First off, the Church does not assert that it knows “the whole truth.” What it does assert is that it teaches that truth which is necessary for salvation. That need not imply knowing the “whole” of truth.
Second, that no one knows or does not know the “whole truth,” is an easy claim for you to make, but translates to being an empty statement. Unless you can point to actual important truths concerning salvation which the Church does not know about or does not teach, or can point to actual mistakes in Church teaching where you know what the truth is but where the Church has “made errors,” your comments are mere posturing along the lines of, “I know something no one else does.” Well, okay, but is that “something” of any real importance?
O
openmind77
Guest
If you agree that the Church does not know the ‘whole’ truth, then you must also agree that the Christ when he returns may reveal information that the Church does not yet know.There also may be quite a lot of this new information (unless you think the Church knows ‘almost all’ of the truth)
As for what is one specific thing that the Church does not know - if you follow this thread, you will see that we were in the middle of discussing the merits of reincarnation versus having just one life. I think the truth about this issue will be revealed when the Christ returns. Perhaps the Hindu/Buddhist view will be proven false, perhaps it will be the other way around. In either case, it is something of real importance. Both of us need to be prepared to be surprised by this or any other new information.
A
Abu
Guest
False. There is no evidence whatsoever for some other “truth”.
No other religious founder claimed to be God and proved it – not Mohammed of Islam, not in Hinduism, not in Buddhism, not in Taoism, not in Confucianism.
We have seen that Christ’s miracles are without parallel in any other religion and that only He is the Resurrection and the Life. After His Resurrection history attests to the reality that He sent the Holy Spirit to guide His Church to ALL TRUTH.
“I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name, he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15).
We have seen that the present day miracles through His Catholic Church are unparalleled anywhere else. They cannot be.
O
openmind77
Guest
I think you misunderstand me. I did not say that the Christ was not divine or that he does not know the whole truth. I am saying the Church’s interpretation of the Christ’s teachings may be incomplete or inaccurate.
When the Christ returns this incomplete knowledge will be completed and corrected. This is why everyone should be prepared to learn something new and maybe for some surprises.
P
PRmerger
Guest
You seem to believe, however, that the Church’s interpretation of some of Christ’s teachings are correct.
What is the canon you use to determine when the Church is correct or not? Your own personal views?
This is correct. But, in the context of reincarnation, we already have the complete knowledge: it does not occur.
G
Gorgias
Guest
Yes, in a way you are.
See? You say that, when the Church says it knows the truth, you know better – you know it doesn’t.
Funny the way absolute claims work, eh?
O
openmind77
Guest
Not really. What I am saying is that the Christ knows better than either of us and he will soon be resolving the issues. It is best for both of us not to be so sure of our own beliefs, otherwise that could very easily lead to disappointment.Yes, in a way you are.
See? You say that, when the Church says it knows the truth, you know better – you know it doesn’t.
Funny the way absolute claims work, eh?
A
Abu
Guest
- That CANNOT be as She is “the pillar and ground of the truth.”[1 Tim 3:15].
- That BELTTLES the divinity and teaching of the Son of God in founding HIS OWN CHURCH.
This disregards the mandate of Jesus, the Son of God, in installing Peter as His Supreme Vicar in Christ’s own Church:
**All four promises to Peter alone: **
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." (Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) ; [Later, also to the Twelve]
**Sole authority: **
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).
It is thus impossible for God’s Church to teach error in dogma or doctrine to the whole Church on faith or morals and so be incomplete or inaccurate thereby as all doctrine and dogma has to be proclaimed by and through the Pope.
G
Gorgias
Guest
You’re doing it again. You’ve decided that you know better than the Church that there are ‘issues’ that need to be ‘resolved’.
Yet, it’s not “our own beliefs” – it’s the beliefs of the Church (and, of course, Christ gave us the Church in order that she might spread His teaching!).
A
Abu
Guest
It has nothing to do with “ever making mistakes”, which several popes have done, by not only personally sinning, but failing to teach when they should have.
It has to do ONLY with Christ’s Catholic Church and the teaching of His dogma and doctrine by His Popes to be held by the whole Church on faith or morals.
P
Peter_Plato
Guest
I can agree that Christ will “reveal information that the Church does not yet know.” The very first bit of information which will be revealed will be the precise time of his return, which the Church doesn’t know and neither did Christ when he walked the Earth.
Below, you make that funny little transmigration of thought (again) from “the Church doesn’t know everything,” and “Christ will reveal information that the Church does not know,” to “the Church will, therefore, be wrong about something.” You have to know you are committing a non sequitur.
The Scriptures, the Church Fathers, the tradition of Judaism, the Doctors of the Church and the Magesterium have all consistently taught against “the merits of reincarnation.” I can assure you that it is not one of those things we will be surprised about. YOU might be, perhaps, but the Church won’t be.
Irenaeus of Lyons (ca. AD 189,) for example, wrote:
And he wasn’t the only one. Origen, Tertullian, Gregory of Nyssa, Arnobius of Sicca, Basil of Caesarea, Augustine of Hippo, John Chrysostom and many, many others though the history of the Church, all have given a resounding “No!” to the “doctrine.”
It won’t be in the list of “Surprising Things You Never Knew.”
O
openmind77
Guest
I may be mistaken, but if I remember correctly, several of Origen’s theories were declared ‘anathema’ by the Church and he was considered by many as a heretic. He was officially condemned and his works destroyed.
Which is exactly my point - when a supreme authority like the Christ is present in our midst, it is no longer possible to suppress dissent or silence differences in opinion regarding doctrine.
In any case, I have not said that the Christ will definitely support the theory of reincarnation when he Returns. However if there is any truth to it all, we will know for certain without any ambiguity or doubts the truth from him. So it would be wise not to prejudge what the Christ will say and be ready for new information and maybe some surprises.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Where he was consonant with the Truth, the CC said
Where he divorced himself from Truth, the CC said: NO.
This makes no sense.
No one silences or suppresses dissent in the Catholic Church.
P
Peter_Plato
Guest
I wouldn’t suppose that his works were destroyed because they are still around. The point being that Origen was correct on some things, but not on others and the Church is well within her rights to point out precisely where he was mistaken and where he was correct.
Your point isn’t very clear even though you claim it is exact. When the supreme authority of Christ will be fully present in our midst it will no longer be possible to dissent or express differences of opinion because THOSE will be known to be clearly false AND “silenced” and “suppressed” purely as a consequence of being untrue. Anyone who dissents or expresses differences of opinion will, strictly speaking, be a liar because they will know the truth but will still be choosing to dissent from it.
So your point would seem a strange one. All people will know the complete truth but will still be free to dissent from it and express differences of opinion regarding it? How will THAT work? The truth is X, we all know it, but I still propose Y? :nope:
O
openmind77
Guest
The difference will be that the truth will be available from the Christ himself unlike today where it is from human organizations and individuals. Today, we can not be completely sure which is the truth because humans can sometimes make mistakes. In spite of this some may claim that theirs is the only truth, it is therefore best to let the Christ himself resolve any differences and for the rest of us be ready to have our beliefs corrected. (There will still be some within the Church and outside it who do not agree with the Christ even after he returns- humans always have free-will).
E
Even_So
Guest
barnabasaid.org/news/Buddhist-mob-threatens-to-assault-Sri-Lankan-pastor?audience=US
We all have our faults, but I would not think monks would do this. Is this zen?
We all have our faults, but I would not think monks would do this. Is this zen?
E
Even_So
Guest
E
Even_So
Guest
No you can’t. I have heard someone once say that’s how they plan to lived their life. Good luck with that. GOD knows your heart. You either have a complete transformation of the heart, or you don’t. If you plan that sort of life, you are making JESUS a liar. GOD would never honor that way of deceitful thinking unless you truly were sorry at the end. I would not want to take the chance.
I walked with 30 years of deathly fear of dying. Why? Because I walked away and knew I was doing wrong. Thank you LORD for not letting me die! Whoever makes that sort of statement has no idea of what’s coming.
- Status