33,280 Protestants and Catholic Apologists?

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Sorry, I had my cursor over the dislike button and my rosary accidentally fell and clicked dislike. :rolleyes:
 
So… if all protestants were loyal to tradition under the Pope, there’d still be thousands of denominations?

So far as I can tell, his only real point is that the number is not exact. I got fed up by his insults, general attitude, and ignorance of the argument he was addressing after 12 minutes, and so didn’t hear his final number, but whatever it is, it must be in the thousands and that’s too many.

He then somehow seems to think that because lots of Catholics ignore Catholicism, that makes Catholicism itself less united rather than there simply being a lot of people who are wrong calling themselves Catholic, and claims that that somehow makes the actual divisions among protestantism less bad. Frankly, the Catholicism-is-false Catholics are making exactly the same error the Protestants do - deciding for themselves what is true based on their own desires and interpretations and rejecting what they don’t like. It’s the same principle, and Catholicism condemns it whether the people practicing it are formal members of the Church or not.

We mention sola scriptura by name because it’s a commonly held manifestation of this “what is true is what I decide is true” approach. There may be various variations on this theme, but they all amount to the same thing, and they’re all dangerous and wrong.

That is, he may say that some sect or other doesn’t believe in sola scriptura, but when you trace it far enough it still ends up being that ultimately each person decides what is true for himself, using primarily scripture. Even in the groups that don’t claim individual interpretation: you have many people saying that the only authority is X (which really means that each man is his own authority, because X usually can’t talk), and then acting as though “what X says” must necessarily be exactly what that individual says - which is individual interpretation, the interpreter just happens to think he’s special. As do all other interpreters who decide he’s not special and break off and form their own churches, and so individual decisions on truth is what happens

And it makes no difference whether they call it Sola Scriptura or something else - one sect or the other might claim that scripture should be read in light of tradition, but this doesn’t really change anything as tradition is up for interpretation too and is (generally) considered to be subservient to scripture, which they interpret themselves. So you still have the case where nothing is fixed outside my own brain.

All the other things that he cites for divisions, “new scriptures, traditions of men” are a result of… what? A protestant may say that the dueterocanonical books aren’t scripture, but by what authority? His own. He decides, because he interprets everything, figures he knows better than the Church built on the rock, and kicks em out because he doesn’t like what they say. Sola Scriptura indeed, but pick your own scriptura - which is what the whole thing amounts to anyway. Traditions of Men? Why does he think that they’re traditions of men and not from God and bad things? Because they contradict what HE has decided is true, and HE doesn’t think there’s support for them in the bible (or in whatever set of stuff HE has decided is true), and so HE decides they must be false, and therefore HE thinks they must have been made by men and therefore, for some reason, automatically bad. And he decided based on his own decisions about what everything means.

The problem with protestantism is relativism in general. Sola Scriptura is the most common manifestation of it, but really they’re all the same. The Truth is what I decide it is.

And of course, half of his words are insults, and he has disabled comments on his videos so that no one can address his flawed arguments. And, with all his insults and the closing of his comment box, he has the gall to call Catholics childish and accuse Catholics of not listening to what people say.
 
I am very traditionalist in my views and I agree that no church out there is perfectly united.

I would never say “even 2 denominations is too much” in any debate with those heretics/schismatics.
The truth, be it scripture or tradition, will always divide people. If I were to choose apologists, I would say I agree more with Matatics-type apologists over Hahn-type apologists.
 
I am very traditionalist in my views and I agree that no church out there is perfectly united.

I would never say “even 2 denominations is too much” in any debate with those heretics/schismatics.
The truth, be it scripture or tradition, will always divide people. If I were to choose apologists, I would say I agree more with Matatics-type apologists over Hahn-type apologists.
Yes of course the truth will divide people, but this does not mean that the truth is that people should divide themselves up - which is what sola scriptura and the like ultimately say.
 
Here’s the video. This guy is using “logic” to make his point and even bashes multiple Apologists.

youtube.com/watch?v=n_ZXbrbfXrY

His point is that sola scriptura is not what causes theses denominations.
Actually, I would argue that there’s a better way to approach this argument, haha. The problem isn’t sola scriptura; it’s the right of private judgment, according to which, given that the Bible is perspicuous (clear) enough–at least on the important points–for each individual to understand the intended meaning, every Christian has the authority to read Scripture and discern truth from error with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

This Protestant dogma is, of course, found nowhere in the text of holy writ, so it’s quite rich for a Reformed Baptist like James White to deplore the “traditions of men” found in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy). It’s this dogma which laid the groundwork for the theological chaos in Protestantism and which reflects so ill on the credibility of Christianity thanks to the never-ending and irresolvable splintering.
 
Yes of course the truth will divide people, but this does not mean that the truth is that people should divide themselves up - which is what sola scriptura and the like ultimately say.
Well I think that people divide because they dont want fellowship with certain others. I would definitely not hold fellowship with schimatics and I also would not attend a non-Latin mass.

I dont get how certain traditionalists denomninations are so divided though for example, Matatics and Sungenis and Dimond brothers probably would all condemn eachother.
 
And of course, half of his words are insults, and he has disabled comments on his videos so that no one can address his flawed arguments. And, with all his insults and the closing of his comment box, he has the gall to call Catholics childish and accuse Catholics of not listening to what people say.
I’d go with the Early Church Fathers over James White any day of the week. His hero St. Augustine believed in sacramentalism and the Eucharistic sacrifice, yet this Reformed Baptist apologist then argues that acceptance of these doctrines is so heretical as to render Catholics–and presumably Orthodox–entirely outside the Christian fold. (Check out this blog post from Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong.)
 
What do you make of the pope reciting the creed with the patriarchate of Constantinople?

Why not?
Ok, back in the purer ages of the Church, was the Eastern Church anymore ecumenical as the modern Popes? Dont the Eastern Church today still hold to “no salvation outside the church”?

I would not attend a modern Mass because the Latin one is far better and I find no reason to attend the modern Mass due to the amount of controversy surrounding it, just like if I went to Brazil, I would never attend those “catholic” Churches with heretical charismaniack contemporary worship music, due to the controversy surrounding Christian rock and contemporary worship music.
 
A lot of complaining, but no refuting what the Catholic apologists stated. (I only watched the first 5 minutes, though, as I grew tired of the ad hominem). I do think that the 33,000 (or whatever) number is a exaggerated though. Now, I’m not saying there are not that many different Protestant churches, sects, groups, etc…but I think if you actually narrowed it down to the number of unique sets of doctrine…the number would be far lower. I once read someone on this forum say that 350 might be a more realistic number. I happen to use 400 when discussing the topic…and admit that it’s just my own estimate based on the 33,000. But the real fact of the matter is that even 2 is too many. If 2 groups who both adhere to SS come to 2 unique and opposing views on even 1 doctrine…then SS has failed because there can be only 1 Truth and SS has given birth to more than 1. And it’s essentially because SS is a misnomer…a pretend idea that simply hides the true authority in an SS belief system…the individual self.
 
Ok, back in the purer ages of the Church, was the Eastern Church anymore ecumenical as the modern Popes? Dont the Eastern Church today still hold to “no salvation outside the church”?

I would not attend a modern Mass because the Latin one is far better and I find no reason to attend the modern Mass due to the amount of controversy surrounding it, just like if I went to Brazil, I would never attend those “catholic” Churches with heretical charismaniack contemporary worship music, due to the controversy surrounding Christian rock and contemporary worship music.
From the words of my favorite retired priest,

“The Latin Mass is ‘STUPID’ and should of been changed far before 1964”. 😃

This priest was trained for the Latin Mass as well… The Latin Mass is stupid really if you think about it.

The vernacular Mass is far better because it allows the congregation to help in the divine sacrifice of the Mass than just sit there and think about whats for lunch while the priest babbles some Latin.

Latin in the Tridentine does not more good than the English in the Vernacular does.
The product in each mass is still the same. The Holy Eucharist.

But hey, if you like the Latin Mass and it’s offered, then go for it! I’m not the enemy of the Latin Mass, I love the Latin Mass…but I would not exclude the Latin Mass over the Vernacular. That is why I dislike the FSSP very much. If you want to join an order that mainly focuses on the Latin Mass, then no problem, but do not exclude yourself to it. I recommend Canons Regular of St. John Cantius or Institute of Christ the King if you’re into those kinds of priestly orders.
 
Obligatory pigheaded dismissal of sacred rites reaching back to the times of the apostles ☑️
From the words of my favorite retired priest,

“The Latin Mass is ‘STUPID’ and should of been changed far before 1964”. 😃
In the words of my favorite [soon to be] retired pope:
“the Roman Missal promulgated by St. Pius V and reissued by Bl. John XXIII is to be considered as an extraordinary expression of that same ‘Lex orandi,’ and must be given due honour for its venerable and ancient usage.” emphasis mine.
This priest was trained for the Latin Mass as well… The Latin Mass is stupid really if you think about it.
He who spits at the sky soils only himself.
The vernacular Mass is far better because it allows the congregation to help in the divine sacrifice of the Mass than just sit there and think about whats for lunch while the priest babbles some Latin.
From the most recent pope to be canonized (In reference to the TLM):
Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X:
The Way to Assist at Mass

15 Q. What is required in order to assist at Holy Mass well and profitably?
A. To assist at Holy Mass well and profitably two things are necessary: (1) Modesty of person and (2) Devotion of heart.

16 Q. In what does modesty of person consist?
A. Modesty of person consists especially in being modestly dressed, in observing silence and recollection and, as far as possible, in remaining kneeling, except during the time of the two Gospels which are heard standing.

17 Q. In hearing Holy Mass which is the best way to practise true devotion?
A. In hearing Holy Mass the best way to practise true devotion is the following: (1) From the very beginning to unite our intention with that of the priest, offering the Holy Sacrifice to God for the ends for which it was instituted. (2) To accompany the priest in each prayer and action of the Sacrifice. (3) To meditate on the passion and death of Jesus Christ And to heartily detest our sins, which have been the cause of them. (4) To go to Communion, or at least to make a spiritual Communion while the priest communicates.

18 Q. What is spiritual Communion?
A. Spiritual Communion is a great desire to be united sacramentally with Jesus Christ. saying, for example: “My Lord Jesus Christ, I desire with my whole heart to be united with Thee now and forever;” and then make the same acts that are to be made before and after sacramental Communion.

19 Q. Does the recitation of the Rosary or other prayers during Mass prevent us from hearing it with profit?
A. The recitation of the Rosary and other prayers during Mass does not prevent us from hearing it with profit, provided we try As far as possible to follow the parts of the Holy Sacrifice.

20 Q. Is it advisable to pray for others while assisting at Mass?
A. Yes it is advisable to pray for others while assisting at Mass; nay more, the time of Holy Mass is the most suitable of all times to pray for the living and the dead.

21 Q. What should we do after Mass?
A. After Mass we should give God thanks for having allowed us to assist at this great Sacrifice, and we should ask pardon for All the faults we may have committed while assisting at it.
(link)
If anything the OF is less suited to true participation, as it replaces opportunities to do so with aerobic exercises and out of tune singing.
Latin in the Tridentine does not more good than the English in the Vernacular does.
Latin is the language of the universal Church, and is the most proper way to hear the mass in either form. The vernacular divides where Latin unites. We are one body, and, as such, it seems improper to gather in separate masses based on nationality, for, “There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
The product in each mass is still the same. The Holy Eucharist.
And because everymass has this source of infinite bounty, any comparison between rites and forms must surely be based un how they prepare you for it’s reception. In other words the same ocean is there in either case, so the only thing we have to compare are the buckets with which we draw from it.
But hey, if you like the Latin Mass and it’s offered, then go for it! I’m not the enemy of the Latin Mass, I love the Latin Mass
:hmmm:
The Latin Mass is stupid really if you think about it.
:rolleyes: Of course you do.
…but I would not exclude the Latin Mass over the Vernacular. That is why I dislike the FSSP very much. If you want to join an order that mainly focuses on the Latin Mass, then no problem, but do not exclude yourself to it. I recommend Canons Regular of St. John Cantius or Institute of Christ the King if you’re into those kinds of priestly orders.
:ouch: The FSSP do say mass in the ordinary form.
 
But the real fact of the matter is that even 2 is too many. If 2 groups who both adhere to SS come to 2 unique and opposing views on even 1 doctrine…then SS has failed because there can be only 1 Truth and SS has given birth to more than 1. And it’s essentially because SS is a misnomer…a pretend idea that simply hides the true authority in an SS belief system…the individual self.
The thing is, Protestants can then proceed to make the argument that, since Catholics, Byzantines, Orientals, and Assyrians all point to Scripture, Tradition, and Church as their sources of authority, and multiple groups claiming to teach the true faith have been in existence since the fifth century, the methodology they share is thus shown to be unworkable.
 
Ok, back in the purer ages of the Church, was the Eastern Church anymore ecumenical as the modern Popes?
I haven’t studied the period, but I doubt it.
Dont the Eastern Church today still hold to “no salvation outside the church”?
I’ll have to get back to you on this question.
I would not attend a modern Mass because the Latin one is far better and I find no reason to attend the modern Mass due to the amount of controversy surrounding it, just like if I went to Brazil, I would never attend those “catholic” Churches with heretical charismaniack contemporary worship music, due to the controversy surrounding Christian rock and contemporary worship music.
Understood. I’ve been to Ordinary Form Masses which were celebrated reverently, but they seem to be the exception and not the rule. If the Extraordinary Form helps you grow spiritually, stick with it. 🙂
 
The thing is, Protestants can then proceed to make the argument that, since Catholics, Byzantines, Orientals, and Assyrians all point to Scripture, Tradition, and Church as their sources of authority, and multiple groups claiming to teach the true faith have been in existence since the fifth century, the methodology they share is thus shown to be unworkable.
Well, I don’t mean to give offence, but my response would be that where the head is so also is the body. Other churches, though their sacraments are valid, are in a most unfortunate circumstance of schism. :sad_yes:
 
This Protestant dogma is, of course, found nowhere in the text of holy writ, so it’s quite rich for a Reformed Baptist like James White to deplore the “traditions of men” found in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy). It’s this dogma which laid the groundwork for the theological chaos in Protestantism and which reflects so ill on the credibility of Christianity thanks to the never-ending and irresolvable splintering.
You will find that non catholic christians will say of solo/a scripture that it is not a required beleif. iow they don’t have to beleive in it.
 
You will find that non catholic christians will say of solo/a scripture that it is not a required beleif. iow they don’t have to beleive in it.
Indeed, they are united only in their rebellion. The defining feature of Protestantism is their protest.
 
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