"36,000" denominations

[EA_Man]

Mickey:

I surely wouldn’t want a protestant surgeon operating on me. (sarcasm)

God works through all people!

I don’t mind people disagreeing with me. If I’m wrong, show me my error, that I may correct it.

But you had better have something better than “you’re always wrong, we’re always right.”

 

[Mickey]

EA_Man:

I don’t mind people disagreeing with me. If I’m wrong, show me my error, that I may correct it.

But you had better have something better than “you’re always wrong, we’re always right.”

Agreed!

 

[Ignatius]

montanaman:

People,

Until we have some better verification that Protestants are divided into 36,000 denominations, I think using that specific number does more harm than good. I’ve been trying to track that down, but I haven’t found anything reliable. I’d be MORE than happy to see any evidence, but until then, using the term “multiple divisions” is more accurate…

I recently had a debate on this and I got singed. So, it’s just a thought…

The source is David A. Barrett’s *World Christian Encyclopedia.*This is a protestant researcher, by the way.

 

[ScottH]

Here’s the question I pose- and let me preface this by saying that the sheer numbers of “denominations” are mind-boggling… and this from a non-RC Christian…

But here’s my question:

1. Is it worse to disagree with what your faith is teaching and still go to the building on Sunday, yet hope that your faith “changes” to what you want it to be.
2. Or is it worse to go start something else apart from it, centered around “fixing” the part you had a problem with, and leave the group you were once in.

Everyone is going to lead towards example #1. But here’s the deal, Protestant denominations are easily referenced. You can easily research them and know what they are about. If they have a scriptural failing, its often on the surface, and easily discerned (speaking in toungues, salvation through infant baptism, complete water dunking at baptism is the only way… etc…)

But to the body of real Bible believers (and I don’t place you RF folks apart from that, incidentally- I feel its an individual thing) it allows us to discern and know what we are dealing with, for better or worse.

But here’s the flip-side: In all churches (Bible Believing Prot/Bible Believing Roman Catholic) there remains people who seek to undermine INSTEAD of leave. (I point to the More Light Presbyterians- headed by homosexual pastor Michael Adee- who is working within to bring down the denomination into Biblical decay.) Conversely- there’s elements within Roman Catholicism who would seek to work within the organization to change things about you folks- such as female ordination of Priests, differing stances on life, etc.

So here’s what I’m getting at- I would rather the people seeking to undermine any given church simply leave than covertly attempt to work within to warp it in their direction. In the case of you RC folks, I was happy with selection of Pope Benedict, but I saw that many American RC’s were not, because he’s “conservative”, especially on life issues, ordination issues, scriptural issues.

Yet- there were groans. I was surprised.

You wonder if Christ has really penetrated the lives of such people. Yet many of these people are seated next to you in church, the same way that many people seeking to “liberalize” the church I attend sit by me.

Frankly- A point comes where I would rather have theme leave than to undermine from within.

Here’s an example- ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_040623.shtml
An altered Bible to be more “Welcoming” to Post Moderns- particularly homosexual ones! Endorsed by the Archbishop of Canterbury!

Let them go have their “new group” instead of festering in any church the teaches the word of God. And if they give themselves a creedo and a new name- so be it. We know then what they believe, and they don’t infest our councils and try to teach false doctrine.

 

[thessalonian]

ScottH you missed one.

#3, Is it better to examine yourself and that you might not be as wise as 2000 years of scriptural understanding and tradition.

Proverbs 3:5 provides the answer (along with Jerimiah 3:15)

Prov 3:5 Trust not in your own understanding but rely on the Lord.

The Lord sends legitimate leaders who give us knowledge and understanding.

Jer 3:15 I will give you shepherds after my own heart who will give you KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING.

Blessings

 

[ScottH]

Right Thess, but I do not limit those leaders and the Holy Spirit within those leaders to merely those under the umbrella of Roman Catholicism. That’s a KEY difference.

 

[thessalonian]

ScottH:

Right Thess, but I do not limit those leaders and the Holy Spirit within those leaders to merely those under the umbrella of Roman Catholicism. That’s a KEY difference.

In other words you accept knowledge and understanding mixed with contradiction, confusion, error, and division.. Is this the Holy Spirit you speak of?

 

[Mickey]

Different heresies arose from the very beginning because of disagreements with the Church. The reformation arose because of disagreements with the Church. Reforms within protestantism were introduced.

Today we have situations such as the 1st baptist church, 2nd baptist church, 3rd baptist church, American baptist, southern baptist, reformed baptist, 1st presbyterian, united presbyterian, reformed presbyterian, 1st methodist, united methodist, etc, etc, etc…

As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, satan will always attempt to destroy from within. Dissidents from within will continue to introduce their relativistic heresies. But they will not prevail. Christ promised us this much.

 

[ScottH]

thessalonian:

In other words you accept knowledge and understanding mixed with contradiction, confusion, error, and division.. Is this the Holy Spirit you speak of?

Thess, I realize you are trying your darnedest to “politely” tell me that my faith stinks, and discount the Holy Spirit within my own life.

I’m going to do my best to see past that, and be kind to you anyway.

From the descriptions of the seven churches in Revelations, they all sounded quite different, with their own unique set of strenghts and failings. (Just like men.)

What you are seeing today is not that unique- even amongst the body in the time of John the Apostle.

 

[DeFide]

ScottH:

Here’s the question I pose- and let me preface this by saying that the sheer numbers of “denominations” are mind-boggling… and this from a non-RC Christian…

But here’s my question:

1. Is it worse to disagree with what your faith is teaching and still go to the building on Sunday, yet hope that your faith “changes” to what you want it to be.
2. Or is it worse to go start something else apart from it, centered around “fixing” the part you had a problem with, and leave the group you were once in.

.

I can give you the Catholic perspective:

If a Catholic comes to believe the Church is in error in some essential, officially defined doctrine, it is a mortal sin against conscience, a sin of hypocrisy, for him to remain in the Church and call himself a Catholic, but only a venial sin against knowledge for him to leave the Church in honest but partly culpable error.

If he doesn’t see how something is a sin, but recognizes the Church’s authority, then he has a difficulty, not a doubt, and he must take pains to inform his conscience, yet avoid the sin while he is investigating.

Why do we submit to the authority of the Church? Because Jesus said so:

‘If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. . . . But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you. . . . If he refuses to listen . . . tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector’ (Mt 18:15-17).

Notice he didn’t say “start your own Church, Martin Luther”. The Bible is very clear to me about what to do if we have a disagreement with one another over some issue pertaining to the Faith. And please remember: To lead someone into heresy is a grievous sin against your brother according to Galatians 5:19-21! The Bible tells us that the Church, not the Bible, is the final court of appeal.

 

[malcolm_davies]

this all goes to prove that 'sola scriptura" ie bible only is a recipe for division as everyone is their own pope

catholic revelation = scripture + tradition as interpreted by the magisterium and that is the true source of unity

 

[ScottH]

malcolm_davies:

this all goes to prove that 'sola scriptura" ie bible only is a recipe for division as everyone is their own pope

catholic revelation = scripture + tradition as interpreted by the magisterium and that is the true source of unity

In your opinion- (lets not leave that part out.)
And you are entitled to it.

But let me ask you this-

Is there “unity” simply because people are under the same roof on Sundays? I know alot of pro-abortion, pro-gay, pro-contraceptive, left-wing Roman Catholics who feel they can work from within to change the views of their church. These are the people that groaned rather loudly when Benedict was chosen last month.

Where I disagree with you folks is clearly seen and admitted. I don’t hide behind a veil with the intent to covertly change your church or liberalize your church’s teaching. We can talk about our differences as fellow believers honestly- and we do.

Yet- you folks have lots of wolves in sheeps clothing within your walls. Beware the kisses of enemies, moreso than the wounds caused by friends. I’m a friend that will outwardly admit that I don’t believe everything about Roman Catholicism. I respect you folks greatly, and enjoy fellowship with you all.

But I’m not one of the dressed up wolves sitting next to you on Sunday. They are the ones with the bite.

I always find myself pulling for you folks against the liberal elements within. I was happy to see Benedict become Pope, because I know he won’t cater to the liberal elements (although I wish the man was younger, like John Paul II was when he began.)

I think you might admit that although you don’t hold to sola-scriptural - some of your pewfellows would benefit by reading the Bible a bit more- and being a little bit “sola scriptura”- instead of trying to promote un-biblical values within.

 

[thessalonian]

ScottH:

In your opinion- (lets not leave that part out.)
And you are entitled to it.

But let me ask you this-

Is there “unity” simply because people are under the same roof on Sundays? I know alot of pro-abortion, pro-gay, pro-contraceptive, left-wing Roman Catholics who feel they can work from within to change the views of their church. These are the people that groaned rather loudly when Benedict was chosen last month.

Where I disagree with you folks is clearly seen and admitted. I don’t hide behind a veil with the intent to covertly change your church or liberalize your church’s teaching. We can talk about our differences as fellow believers honestly- and we do.

Yet- you folks have lots of wolves in sheeps clothing within your walls. Beware the kisses of enemies, moreso than the wounds caused by friends. I’m a friend that will outwardly admit that I don’t believe everything about Roman Catholicism. I respect you folks greatly, and enjoy fellowship with you all.

But I’m not one of the dressed up wolves sitting next to you on Sunday. They are the ones with the bite.

I always find myself pulling for you folks against the liberal elements within. I was happy to see Benedict become Pope, because I know he won’t cater to the liberal elements (although I wish the man was younger, like John Paul II was when he began.)

I think you might admit that although you don’t hold to sola-scriptural - some of your pewfellows would benefit by reading the Bible a bit more- and being a little bit “sola scriptura”- instead of trying to promote un-biblical values within.

First of all Scott I apologize if I have been overly negative toward you. My statements should always be taken as my need to emphatically state what I know to be true rather than a snip at you personally. I make no bones on forums about stating that the Catholic Church is the fullness of the truth. Some call mearrogant because of this. To each his own. Noone who knows me has ever called me arrogant.

That said, I applaud you for the spirit of cooperation and unity you attempt to attain on these forums. I always have great respect for Protestants who are at least willing to be open and honest and actually hear what we have to beleive. Your observation is quite correct. There are varying degrees of unity and certainly I would feel more “one” with you than a Catholic who obstinately opposes Church teaching. I have much more tolerance for you than one who should submit and does not. The scriptures of course say there will be wolves among us so with regard to unity of the Church it is not that big a problem for me that some appear to be in communion with the Church but are really not (they were never really one of us). While some appear not to be but really are. God is the judge of hearts and that is not my place. And yes I am all for Catholics picking up their Bibles. St. Jerome said “Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ”.

God Bless

 

[thessalonian]

ScottH:

Thess, I realize you are trying your darnedest to “politely” tell me that my faith stinks, and discount the Holy Spirit within my own life.

Actually no I am not. I have great respect for the faith in Christ of a great many Protestants and see evidence that you may be one of them that will gain that respect. I am not your judge and God will judge you based on the light given. I am just telling you there is a problem with a system that produces denomination after denomination. That sola scrptura is the root of this division. My statement was against the system, not you personally.

God bless

 

[Ignatius]

ScottH:

In your opinion- (lets not leave that part out.)
And you are entitled to it.

Actually, it is not opinion. Jesus gave Peter the “keys of the kingdom of heaven.” In ancient Israel, this signified granting full authority. As when a king would give his prime minister the keys to the kingdom until his return. In fact, that is exactly what Christ the King was doing.

God bless.

 

[TobyLue]

I went through the phone directories of the top 100 cities in the USA. Phew---- I’m not through yet but I have counted 1,458,645 and ¾ different denominations and still counting… just kidding of course.

This is my take

There is **ONE** Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, but there are many different Protestant CHURCH**ES **(Plural). The thing is that as cities grow, a parish may split into two or three different parishes. St. Elmo is now two parishes. The other is St. Cloud. Are these different Catholic Churches? No, its still ONE Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. They have the same scriptural reading for every single day of the year. Yes, they may on certain feast days substitute some of the readings, but really the readings are the same everywhere. Non-Catholics are not united in that respect. One pastor can preach on John 3:16 and the other on Revelations, the other on Acts, etc., etc. I can go to some bible college and then set up my own church and preach whatever I want. I think **this **is where we get all of these different denominations. They may agree somewhat on the some doctrines, but the church down the street has no control over what the other church around the corner wants to teach or how to teach. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it is the same with most Baptist Churches. They may belong to the SBC or something else, but doesn’t the pastor choose whatever he wants?

I know that there are many Catholics that do not like the teachings of the Church regarding abortion, homosexuality, contraception, etc., but one thing they can’t do is go start a Catholic Church of their own. Yes, there are cases where some priests (or bishops) have left the Church with their flock, but they are no longer Catholic. Guess what? They are protestant because they are protesting what the CC is teaching. They may call themselves Catholic, but they are not. I know of a small congregation about ½ mile from where I live that claim they are Catholic, but a call to the local chancery will verify that that congregation has NOTHING to do with the Catholic Church. Heck, some have even made themselves Popes, (one of them living in Montana and was elected pope by his parents).

If I don’t like the priest at St. Elmo because of its conservative views, I can’t go and start my own Catholic Church and call it St. Libby, put on vestments and preach liberal views. However, if someone at the church down the street is very involved in that church and he got offended at the conservative preaching of the pastor, they can get start their own Church and call it the True Christian Bible Believing Apostolic Spirit Filled Faith Filled and Born Again We Don’t Judge Anybody Church. The pastor of the former church is powerless to do anything about it. This I think is where we get all these 36,000 gajillion different denominations. I prefer to just say “many” different protestant Churches. BTW, the Catholic Church is NOT a denomination. It is simply the Church that Jesus Christ founded. All the others sprouted from her. They are still Her Children and she, like a loving mother, is calling them home. Sadly, they are telling her, “Aw, Mom, you are old an ancient and not at all with the times. We know better than you, we are smarter than you, and we can interpret scripture better than you. You don’t even know scripture!!. Oh, BTW, I don’t like what Jr., is preaching, I’m starting my own True church.”

 

[ScottH]

Ignatius:

Actually, it is not opinion. Jesus gave Peter the “keys of the kingdom of heaven.” In ancient Israel, this signified granting full authority. As when a king would give his prime minister the keys to the kingdom until his return. In fact, that is exactly what Christ the King was doing.

God bless.

Likewise, the Jews are also his chosen people. But that doesn’t always mean they do what He wants them to do.

 

[DeFide]

ScottH:

Likewise, the Jews are also his chosen people. But that doesn’t always mean they do what He wants them to do.

Do versus teach:

Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matt 23:1-3)

 

[PhilVaz]

<< the True Christian Bible Believing Apostolic Spirit Filled Faith Filled and Born Again We Don’t Judge Anybody Church >>

There are at least 10,000 of those, and a completely different denomination from the Bible Christian True Apostolic Believing Faith Spirit Again Filled Born Judge We Don’t Church Anybody, YODA protestant church.

PhilVaz

 

[Philthy]

OK-

So we all realize that the number of denominations is a function of the definition of a denomination, correct? The concept of counting each country as a separate denomination was truly moronic - doesn’t it make you wonder how people that make such decisions ever learned how to write in the first place - let alone publish a book?! How stupid can you be?
Let’s take the thread in a slightly different direction (or if I should start another one let me know):

**What are some absolutes for distinguishing between “faith traditions” that we can agree on when using the term “denomination”? **

For example how about these basic criteria for starters:

Infant baptism is valid Y N
Baptism is part of salvation Y N
Once Saved Always Saved Y N
Real Presence Y N
Trinity is Truth Y N
Sola Scriptura Y N

Do you realize that with just these 6 issues there is a potential for 64 denominations and it doubles each time you add another issue? How many different issues would you think are necessary to raise the potential denominations to over 30,000? Just 15 issues creates a potential 32,768 denominations. I don’t know, but fifteen issues doesn’t seem like a lot to me. Anybody else have some additional criteria they would like to suggest?

Phil

BTW - I don’t mean to judge anyone with this info - just trying to get a reasonable, dispassionate look at how many crucial issues are out there and what the potential for dissent is. I have many Protestant friends whom I consider brothers and sisters in Christ. I wish we were more unified but I appreciate the unity we have in Christ and I believe that That which unites us is greater than that which divides us.