40% of babies born to unmarried women !!!

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I notice that people who make mistakes (that they are aware of), they become hyper-aware of what people think of them, even if their perceptions are wrong. They are realizing the consequences of their actions most likely.

The last part of your post is at best a crude personal attack. :tsktsk:
About the virgin tests? I have a Muslim pen-pal of over 15 years who lives in a middle eastern country and he was always asking me when I was going over there, despite of the virgin tests. Shoot, I’m scared. I’m not a virgin, and on the news I see all the violence in the middle east going on. Sam sounds just like my friend Sammy.
 
But what do you think actually stops them, though? Well-educated, wealthy people still have illegitimate children. What do you think goes through someone’s mind that tells them in definite terms that having, or risking having, illegitimate children is not a good idea?
I really have no idea, do you? Perhaps the wealthy people decided that even though they had premarital sex, they aren’t going to abort. Maybe they didn’t use contraception or if they did, it failed. I have no clue. I’m just glad that they aren’t aborting those babies. Two wrongs don’t make a right. (Isn’t that what we Catholics always tell women that are considering abortion?
 
:eek:

Who is giving you dirty looks for bringing illegitimate children to church with you?

Are you sure they’re not giving you dirty looks for some other reason?
Well I don’t wear make-up or clothing that shows a lot of skin or thats way too tight. I have natural hair color, I’m pretty much a “plain jane”. I’ve concluded that it’s either A. because I have a child and no wedding ring, or B. Its because I’m missing a tooth that my son’s father knocked out of my face.
 
About the virgin tests? I have a Muslim pen-pal of over 15 years who lives in a middle eastern country and he was always asking me when I was going over there, despite of the virgin tests. Shoot, I’m scared. I’m not a virgin, and on the news I see all the violence in the middle east going on. Sam sounds just like my friend Sammy.
I’m not saying that they don’t exist, I’m saying connecting it with what others say is not very charitable.
 
I really have no idea, do you? Perhaps the wealthy people decided that even though they had premarital sex, they aren’t going to abort. Maybe they didn’t use contraception or if they did, it failed. I have no clue. I’m just glad that they aren’t aborting those babies. Two wrongs don’t make a right. (Isn’t that what we Catholics always tell women that are considering abortion?
Do you think maybe societal attitudes towards illegitimate children necessarily bring about more of them?
 
Do you think maybe societal attitudes towards illegitimate children necessarily bring about more of them?
I don’t know, but if that was the case, I’d rather have more children being born to single moms than to have more babies being aborted because the mom was worried about her children being referred to as “illegitimate” and being viewed and treated as less than a child that had parents married to each other…
 
Well I don’t wear make-up or clothing that shows a lot of skin or thats way too tight. I have natural hair color, I’m pretty much a “plain jane”. I’ve concluded that it’s either A. because I have a child and no wedding ring, or B. Its because I’m missing a tooth that my son’s father knocked out of my face.
  • Or maybe you accidentally cut them off in the parking lot?
  • Or maybe they’re mistaking you for someone who cut them off in the parking lot?
  • Or maybe they know your ex, and think you’re still together, and don’t like him and are giving you dirty looks because of that?
  • Or maybe they’re trying to remember where they’ve seen you before, and you’ve just misinterpreted their facial expression?
IOW: it could be a MULTITUDE of reasons why they’re giving you a look. Maybe it’s not even dirty. That’s just their normal face. 😃

So I wouldn’t interpret it to mean anything about your bringing your child to church.

I remember looking behind me once Mass started to see a couple entering late. I was actually cracking my neck because it was hurting. It just so happened it was at the same time this couple was entering the pew, late. I wonder if they misinterpreted my neck stretching as a condemnation of their being late.

It wasn’t.

Our eyes just happened to meet.

No condemnation there. 🤷
 
Well, thank you i suppose for at least trying to be sensitive about this. Regardless of whether or not I agree with your points about the breakdown of society, linking children being borne out of wedlock to a social ill just does not sit right with me. It makes me feel very uncomfortable and I can never accept it.

Much of the phenomena that tends to be attributed to out of wedlock births, such as a low income environment, violence and young age among others, are not an intrinsic part of it. I think people get confused amidst all these very different and nuanced issues.

Marriage in itself is not a guaranteed solver of problems. Which is why the Church wont marry a couple just because they are pregnant.

The problems we have in society (and i say this as someone who does not buy the whole ‘prior to the 60s the world was one big utopia’ spiel) I believe can be attributed to shaming, the shaming of single parents and men with virgin/whore complexes, who think they have the right to treat women like dirt just because they are not married to them.

We need to start teaching people that they ought to treat others with respect, just because.
Yes, we must teach people that they ought to treat others with respect. I agree. We must also teach them that respect for others means not using others for sexual purposes.

I realize that this type of discussion can be very sensitive, just because we live in an age when the matters we are discussing have in fact affected a lot of people—probably most people. It’s not like a discussion of nuclear war, something in which we have not participated. But we have engaged in sexual sins; there are children born out of wedlock; there are a million abortions a year; the sale of contraceptives is a huge business. A lot of us have been personally affected.

So a priest giving a perfectly reasonable homily about such matters can expect that many people in the congregation will take it personally or be offended, because they have been affected by such things personally. Perhaps that is why, as Easter Joy mentioned, such homilies are quite rare.

You say that “linking children being borne out of wedlock to a social ill just does not sit right with me. It makes me feel very uncomfortable and I can never accept it.” But without making any judgment on the individuals who may be such children or their parents, the fact is that it is a social ill, with adverse effects on the well being of society. Again, without looking at individuals, statistically such children and such families, overall, have worse outcomes in a variety of categories. There have been a number of books written about this. And the greater the rate of out of wedlock births, the greater the social ills in the population.

The story of Adam and Eve is the first account in the bible after creation itself, and it concerns marriage. When marriage is undermined, individuals and society suffer.

The world was not one big utopia prior to the 1960’s. But the sexual revolution DID have a huge effect on the direction of society, and it was not good. The results are documented and convincing. Mary Eberstadt’s recent book “Adam and Eve After the Pill,” summarizes them quite well. If Paul VI could have lived to see the actual results of the disregard of his encyclical “Humanae Vitae,” he might have stated his case more forcefully. Even so, everything he warned about has in fact occurred.
 
I don’t know, but if that was the case, I’d rather have more children being born to single moms than to have more babies being aborted because the mom was worried about her children being referred to as “illegitimate” and being viewed and treated as less than a child that had parents married to each other…
That’s a false dichotomy. It’s not “more children being born to single moms” or “more babies being aborted because the mom was worried about her children being referred to as ‘illegitimate’”. If someone actually aborts their child because they are worried about them being referred to as illegitimate (and, let’s face it, they are), then I suspect it is not the only reason.

I never suggested illegitimate children were worse than legitimate children. I’ll ask that you take that back, as it is really quite offensive.
 
We as a society just need to be reminded of the basics, and I find myself telling my son this every time he asks me for a baby brother or sister. “First comes Love, then comes Marriage, then comes baby in the baby carriage.” 40% of unmarried women either forgot that, or got it backwards.
 
Since you are on the topic, what do you think stops people from having children out of wedlock?
They face scorn and feel shame from the greater society. The shotgun did not mean death, it meant the man faced exile from his local community and loss of contact with family and friends. And extended family are less likely to take in a son who did not man up and take resposibility then they are to care for a daughter who also made the mistake. However today technology means only physical contact is lost so the shotgun is less scary.

And in some places like China or Arabia the state may force a marriage or an abortion under penalty of law.
 
That’s a false dichotomy. It’s not “more children being born to single moms” or “more babies being aborted because the mom was worried about her children being referred to as ‘illegitimate’”. If someone actually aborts their child because they are worried about them being referred to as illegitimate (and, let’s face it, they are), then I suspect it is not the only reason.

I never suggested illegitimate children were worse than legitimate children. I’ll ask that you take that back, as it is really quite offensive.
It would be helpful to your sensitivities if you quit trying to extrapolate things from my posts that just aren’t there. If you cannot handle the discourse on these forum without being offended, you might consider taking a break from CAF.
 
They face scorn and feel shame from the greater society. The shotgun did not mean death, it meant the man faced exile from his local community and loss of contact with family and friends. And extended family are less likely to take in a son who did not man up and take resposibility then they are to care for a daughter who also made the mistake. However today technology means only physical contact is lost so the shotgun is less scary.
Do you think the efforts to remove shame and scorn from the situation will affect it positively or negatively? Does shame work, or is there some better way of preventing people from bringing children into the world in less-than-ideal circumstances?
 
It would be helpful to your sensitivities if you quit trying to extrapolate things from my posts that just aren’t there. If you cannot handle the discourse on these forum without being offended, it might be best that you take a break from CAF.
Could you give me an example of how I am inappropriately extrapolating things?

There is a noticeable level of bitterness/uncharitableness on the part of some people. Bringing attention to it may well prevent recurrence.
 
Could you give me an example of how I am inappropriately extrapolating things?

There is a noticeable level of bitterness/uncharitableness on the part of some people. Bringing attention to it may well prevent recurrence.
See post 228. You thought I should take something back that was never said about you in the first place. I will agree that anyone who thinks, suggests, or alludes to children born of unwed parents as being less than children born of wed parents is more than quite offensive.
 
It is a social ill. The longer we take to recognize it, the longer it will have to take hold. If we say “it’s all good”, then why not promote it? In some ways, we do. Your discomfort is likely a result of realizing how devastating a phenomenon it is, and how prophetic Humanae Vitae was.
 
People need to get a bigger (and better) definition of what is really meant by the term “Illegitimate”!

As TriumphGuy just mentioned on another active thread, “Babies are always legitimate. In fact they are gift and grace.” (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10007649#post10007649)

And as far as the true definition of that word, see what the apologists have to say: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=11787&highlight=illegitimate+illegitimacy
👍👍👍
 
Do you think the efforts to remove shame and scorn from the situation will affect it positively or negatively? Does shame work, or is there some better way of preventing people from bringing children into the world in less-than-ideal circumstances?
There are two battlefields. First to stop premarital sex, and secondarily what should a couple do should she become pregnant. Fear of eternal punishment is breaking down and natural biological instinct is taking over. Meanwhile we don’t want to use public scorn as we used to do and say Japanese society does. My solution is not approved by the Catholic Church.
 
Thankyou Sam. To answer the question of why women are always called out on this, is because the Lord knows that we are strong enough to tolerate the dirty looks we get when we take our “illegitimate” children to church with us. Aren’t you glad that 40% of babies are BORN, rather than ABORTED, to unmarried women? I wonder how many unmarried women have abortions? SAM you sound like a typical middle eastern Muslim. Are they still doing “virgin tests” on the women in Saudi Arabia?
🙂 That made me smile, thanks and well said.
 
I don’t know, but if that was the case, I’d rather have more children being born to single moms than to have more babies being aborted because the mom was worried about her children being referred to as “illegitimate” and being viewed and treated as less than a child that had parents married to each other…
Yes and yes. Also, attitudes like Catholics insisting on calling children born to unwed mothers, illegitimate, reflect very badly on the Church.
 
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