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BlueEyedLady
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The Catholic church is against people marrying because they got pregnant. That’s not “doing the right thing” and it is grounds for an annulment.
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JimG
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I really don’t think that the Catholic Church is opposed to “doing the right thing.” What it wants to do is to ensure that any marriage is entered into freely, so it might be delayed till after the birth of a child. Still, there is no impediment to marrying the mother or the father of one’s child even though born out of wedlock.
I’ve been personally acquainted with some couples who married for just that reason, and their marriages have lasted. It wasn’t that they were dragged into marriage against their will. They just did decide to do the right thing. And when they recited their vows, they meant them. They decided to love each other and their child. Nothing at all wrong with that.
The entire point about out of wedlock births, at least from my viewpoint, is that it is an indicator of a breakdown in society. In the African American community, for example, the out of wedlock birth rate was between 10% and 20% from the 1920’s to the 1960’s. Now it’s up to 70%. In the general population the rate similarly went from 20% to 45%. That’s an indication of family breakdown.
And family breakdown is not good for society. Children are good for civilization. And so are families.
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severus68
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Many of them I am sure, would have intended to marry at some time.
I would request that you do not bring in racial based stats. I am sure it is not your intention but in past threads, such things have lead to racist toned posts. As someone quoted “If you /we are not part of the solution, you/we are part of the problem.” My apologies if I did not get the exact quote.
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Sam_777
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Your statement worth repeating maybe it will wake up some people.
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Sam_777
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PRmerger
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Well, not exactly.
The CC is against a couple marrying solely because the woman is pregant. But if they love each other and have committed to each other, the CC says
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JimG
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Ethnic stats are always a loaded subject. That’s one reason why Charles Murray excluded a consideration of ethnic minorities in his recent book, “Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010.” The stats are not good for any ethnic group. Yet one ought to be able to examine the reasons for family breakdown dispassionately, and consider the extent to which government policies may have contributed to it.
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BlueEyedLady
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Just how freely would a marriage be entered in to if society and even employers will treat a man who has a child with shame and scorn if he doesn’t marry the woman? I mean, if it becomes difficult to even support himself that’s a lot of outside pressure. Not to mention if a man wanted to marry the woman and she wouldn’t go for it he’s being punished for her decision.
I also know people who married because they got pregnant, most turned out poorly. The worst one was a dear friend of mine who is now living with her sister because she’s getting a divorce. He beat her regularly and the last time it happened he cracked her skull, while she was pregnant, in front of their 4 year old little girl. An ambulance and 3 police cars showed up and I’m convinced that if the neighbors hadn’t called the police she would have died. Both her and her little girl would have been better off if she had not married the father, or at least waited until she knew him a bit better. They married after 6 weeks of dating and she made the assumption that because he was an NCO in the Air Force and because he was willing to “step up” and “do the right thing” that he was a good man. Wrong.
That’s not to say that all marriages like that end in abuse. But what I am saying is that it is downright stupid to assume that two people should be married just because they have a child. There may be huge issues that society is not privy to and it would be better if they didn’t. Putting pressure on them, shaming them, and bullying them is only going to create alienated single parents and bad marriages.
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BlueEyedLady
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When you’re talking about creating a culture of shame and scorn for unwed parents and making it difficult for them to find work, that isn’t freely entering in to marriage.Well, not exactly.
The CC is against a couple marrying solely because the woman is pregant. But if they love each other and have committed to each other, the CC says
A lot of people should not marry the person that they made a baby with. They just shouldn’t. Rather than encouraging people who wouldn’t be good together to get married after the fact, why don’t we focus more on combating unplanned pregnancies?
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JimG
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I can’t disagree with anything you say here. I don’t advocate marrying an abuser. I don’t advocate having sex with an abuser in the first place. “Doing the right thing” implies not just going through a wedding ceremony but loving the spouse and children. The instances I spoke of involved people who were both well intentioned, decent people. They might have married eventually, they might not have. But they both realized that even if they decided not to marry, they would be involved with each other continuously by the fact of being parents of the child. So they married and made it work and didn’t fail to love.
Someone who is not well intentioned ought to be avoided. I am always a little astonished at the bad decisions people sometimes make in choosing partners.
I was watching the old movie “Alice Doesn’t Live Here Anymore,” the other day. The lead character’s first husband—an abusive, always irate man—dies soon after the start. Her son asks her at one point why she had married him. “He was a good kisser,” she replies. Later in the movie, she hooks up with another good kisser who turns out to be violently abusive. Bad choice. But bad choices like this affect other people too, like her son.
So no, I don’t say everyone or anyone who has an out of wedlock child ought to marry. The same considerations still apply. I only say that it ought not to be automatically excluded. In some cases, if they cared enough about each other to make promises with their body, maybe they can care enough to make promises with their mind and will.
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maryjk
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Part of the problem of calling it an “unplanned pregnancy” is that every pregnancy is planned. Sex causes pregnancy. Even if you believe it is okay to use birth control, birth control doesn’t always work.
What we need to do is instead of combating “unplanned” pregnancy, we need to combat premarital sex. In the case of your friend, she had sex with someone she didn’t know. Then ended up in a situation that was abusive. The problem wasn’t that she got married or even that she got pregnant. The problem was she thought it was fine to have sex with someone she didn’t really know.
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BlueEyedLady
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Agreed. But once she did make the mistake of having sex with him she compounded it by getting married. They were both of the belief that when you’re having a baby that’s the right thing to do. They didn’t even want their daughter to know that she was conceived out of wedlock.Part of the problem of calling it an “unplanned pregnancy” is that every pregnancy is planned. Sex causes pregnancy. Even if you believe it is okay to use birth control, birth control doesn’t always work.
What we need to do is instead of combating “unplanned” pregnancy, we need to combat premarital sex. In the case of your friend, she had sex with someone she didn’t know. Then ended up in a situation that was abusive. The problem wasn’t that she got married or even that she got pregnant. The problem was she thought it was fine to have sex with someone she didn’t really know.
But as she learned the hard way, and to quote Chris Rock: “Getting married because you got pregnant is like blowing up your car because it has a flat tire”.
I cannot in good conscience tell people in a blanket statement that they should get married because of a baby. Every person, couple, and relationship is different and there may be so much more going on there that I don’t know about. It’s irresponsible to encourage that.
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JaneGrey
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Wow I am shocked at the victim blaming going on here. I had no issues with your post until the part I bolded. The ‘problem’ was that the man was an abuser. Now why dont we re direct the shame on to him.Part of the problem of calling it an “unplanned pregnancy” is that every pregnancy is planned. Sex causes pregnancy. Even if you believe it is okay to use birth control, birth control doesn’t always work.
What we need to do is instead of combating “unplanned” pregnancy, we need to combat premarital sex. In the case of your friend, she had sex with someone she didn’t know. Then ended up in a situation that was abusive. The problem wasn’t that she got married or even that she got pregnant. The problem was she thought it was fine to have sex with someone she didn’t really know.
What about couples who are abstinent and then one partner begins to abuse the other after marriage? Is the victim less culpable (for an act committed to them not by them) because he or she was ‘good’ and did not have premarital sex? Why are we even talking about victim culpability in the first place. :banghead:
If I could say anything to the abused woman it would be to ignore any comments about her choices and to know that she was not responsible for what happened to her. No one can make us do anything. When we directly hurt someone, we alone are responsible.
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JaneGrey
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Well put. Marriage unfortunately does not make problems disappear.
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BlueEyedLady
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No kidding. They both made the mistake of having a casual 2 or 3 night stand.
He then proceeded to hospitalize her.
Of course if she hadn’t agreed to sex in the first place…
Disgusting.
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Walking_Home
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JaneGrey:
No kidding. They both made the mistake of having a casual 2 or 3 night stand.
He then proceeded to hospitalize her.
Of course if she hadn’t agreed to sex in the first place…
Disgusting.
Agree —absolutely disgusting.
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severus68
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Good post.
However, bad decisions are part of being human. The answer that character gave, was, I think, an answer (silly as it was) to explain something she could not really understand and explain herself. People look for comfort, love and grab on to something without really stopping to think. Not a good thing and yes, bad choices can affect others. In foresight, it may be clear about a bad decision and easier for a third party to see this. People come with baggage. I suppose some are stronger in this area or just luckier.
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JimG
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Oh yes, I agree. What is needed is discernment. And sufficient time to discern.Good post.
However, bad decisions are part of being human. The answer that character gave, was, I think, an answer (silly as it was) to explain something she could not really understand and explain herself. People look for comfort, love and grab on to something without really stopping to think. Not a good thing and yes, bad choices can affect others. In foresight, it may be clear about a bad decision and easier for a third party to see this. People come with baggage. I suppose some are stronger in this area or just luckier.
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severus68
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Maybe I am reading this wrongly, but are you saying that she deserved being abused for having premarital sex?Part of the problem of calling it an “unplanned pregnancy” is that every pregnancy is planned. Sex causes pregnancy. Even if you believe it is okay to use birth control, birth control doesn’t always work.
What we need to do is instead of combating “unplanned” pregnancy, we need to combat premarital sex. In the case of your friend, she had sex with someone she didn’t know. Then ended up in a situation that was abusive. The problem wasn’t that she got married or even that she got pregnant. The problem was she thought it was fine to have sex with someone she didn’t really know.
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severus68
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