43% of Catholics reject transubstantiation

[josh987654321]

Its one thing to define the transubstantiation, its quite another to understand it. If you understand it…please by all means I need to as well. Can you help me?

Luke 7:14-15:

And he said, “Young man, I say to you, arise.” 15 And the dead man sat up, and began to speak.

Can we understand this? I can’t understand how it works. In the same way, when Christ says “This is my body” and “This is my blood” they carry with them the same power as those words “Young man, I say to you, arise.” or in Genesis “Let there be light” and it was.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[gracepoole]

Yep we should not be so quick to blame ‘bad catechesis’ It could simply be that liberal ‘catholics’ place more importance on their political ideology than on the teachings of Jesus. In so doing they look to protestanism as their model and separate Jesus from His Church, the Catholic Church. That’s when you hear things like ‘I don’t agree with this Church teaching or that Church teaching’ when of course they are teachings of Jesus or ‘my conscience tells me’…

In terms of moral teachings, this may be true. But true of transubstantiation? I doubt it. People at my church genuflect to their pews – they don’t seem to know that they’re meant to genuflect to the Blessed Sacrament. Perhaps half don’t bow before receiving. These don’t seem like reactions to “political ideology.” Instead, I’d say sheer ignorance is to blame in many if not most cases.

 

[josh987654321]

People at my church genuflect to their pews – they don’t seem to know that they’re meant to genuflect to the Blessed Sacrament.

These don’t seem like reactions to “political ideology.” Instead, I’d say sheer ignorance is to blame in many if not most cases.

I agree.

And on this note, I don’t know how many have noticed, but I just wanted to mention, I also very much dislike those new ‘modern’ Catholic Churches I have been in once or twice, where the tabernacle is off in some corner and I have to try and find Christ first before genuflecting.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[PolliceVerso]

First, your argument ignores the 57% who do believe! Let’s extend your reasoning, projecting it forward. Why not become atheist? If we are defining belief downward, it is the inevitable end point of the theological entropy observed since the reformation.

No, look before the reformation for the truth. Read the fathers. Look at the beliefs of the Church, both east and west. Remember that words, logic, arguments all fail. Our Lord could not convert the crowds, even face to face! Who is a better evangelist than Christ Jesus? Indeed, some in our time must believe that they are.

Rather, dig into history. Read the fathers. Best of all, take up a challenge that very few seem willing to accept: Find out when your local parish offers adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Then go and spend time before Christ. Pray for the grace to believe, and then be as patient with the Lord has He has been with you.

When you are aware that He is there, you will be changed. You have been dissuaded by man and now seek to be persuaded by man. Go above man’s pay grade: Allow the Holy Spirit to speak.

You have some good thoughts here: we should focus on worship of Christ and what He says in His Word, not what a poll says. But that’s not my point. My point is that I agree with Catholicism above Protestantism on many issues. One is actually the Eucharist. I believe there is real spiritual efficacy, it should be celebrated every time we worship, and should be the centerpiece of every worship service. However, I can’t find Scriptural justification - or even precedent - for transubstantiation. To become Catholic I would need to submit to the Church and her teachings, which I don’t have a problem with in general. But if nearly half of Catholics don’t submit to the Church either on a major Catholic distinctive, then why are they in the Church, and why could I not be in the Church? And I guess the bigger issue would be, why is there not form of reconciliation and increased ecumenical cooperation between Protestants and Catholics?

 

[PolliceVerso]

That’s true.

And the Mass is beautiful and full of scripture.

But really, we need to do a better job of reading on our own time.

St. Jerome said ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ.

Well said. If the ordinary means of grace are Word and Sacrament, then the Catholics do far better on the Sacraments, and the Protestants do far better on the Word.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Well said. If the ordinary means of grace are Word and Sacrament, then the Catholics do far better on the Sacraments, and the Protestants do far better on the Word.

What worries me is that if we don’t believe in the Sacraments then we don’t get much benefit from them. So these folks who don’t believe and presumably don’t read the Gospels either, are getting fed virtually nothing, spiritually.

These are the kinds of Catholics who scared me away from the Church for years. Curse and smoke like sailors and you wonder how can that be? Well, that poll by the OP gives us the answer, imo.

 

[PolliceVerso]

What worries me is that if we don’t believe in the Sacraments then we don’t get much benefit from them. So these folks who don’t believe and presumably don’t read the Gospels either, are getting fed virtually nothing, spiritually.

These are the kinds of Catholics who scared me away from the Church for years. Curse and smoke like sailors and you wonder how can that be? Well, that poll by the OP gives us the answer, imo.

Well, nothing wrong with smoking and cussing per se - smoking, drinking, etc. are fine in moderation. But I get your point: it makes you wonder what the point of the Sacrament is if it is not resulting in transformed lives. The answer is because Sacraments mean nothing if they don’t reflect an inward spiritual reality. In Isaiah 1:11 God says that He has “had enough” of sacrifices, because they weren’t done with a truly repentant heart. Same concept applies to the Sacraments today: God doesn’t want empty ritual, He wants repentant hearts; that’s when the Sacraments are truly effective.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Well, nothing wrong with smoking and cussing per se - smoking, drinking, etc. are fine in moderation. But I get your point: it makes you wonder what the point of the Sacrament is if it is not resulting in transformed lives. The answer is because Sacraments mean nothing if they don’t reflect an inward spiritual reality. In Isaiah 1:11 God says that He has “had enough” of sacrifices, because they weren’t done with a truly repentant heart. Same concept applies to the Sacraments today: God doesn’t want empty ritual, He wants repentant hearts; that’s when the Sacraments are truly effective.

As Catholics we believe they do receive graces at baptism.(not sure the Presbyterian belief on baptism, off hand)

However, they sometimes don’t show evidence of a inward reality until they are 40 or 50 years old.

Poor Catechesis. Big problem here if half of Catholics don’t believe in such a fundamental pillar of faith in the Eucharist. I’d call it a crisis

 

[Sarcelle]

Well said. If the ordinary means of grace are Word and Sacrament, then the Catholics do far better on the Sacraments, and the Protestants do far better on the Word.

Can you further clarify what you mean by the Word?

I noticed you capitalized it. To me the Word would be Jesus Himself, the Logos as you say in Greek.

So Protestants do better with Jesus or with Scripture?

To me Scripture is not the Word, since according to Scripture itself, the Word was already existing in the beginning. Refer to John 1:1.

 

[Peebo]

Are we talking about Catholics who actually regularly attend mass…or the majority of Catholics who don’t…if the latter then it’s not surprising…just because someone says they’re Catholic is meaningless if they don’t believe what the church teaches and practice their faith in their daily lives

 

[PolliceVerso]

As Catholics we believe they do receive graces at baptism.(not sure the Presbyterian belief on baptism, off hand)

However, they sometimes don’t show evidence of a inward reality until they are 40 or 50 years old.

Poor Catechesis. Big problem here if half of Catholics don’t believe in such a fundamental pillar of faith in the Eucharist. I’d call it a crisis

Baptism - and any Sacrament - is only effective with true faith and repentance. If someone truly repents and places their faith in Christ, then you are correct about Baptism being a true means of grace.

Can you further clarify what you mean by the Word?

I noticed you capitalized it. To me the Word would be Jesus Himself, the Logos as you say in Greek.

So Protestants do better with Jesus or with Scripture?

To me Scripture is not the Word, since according to Scripture itself, the Word was already existing in the beginning. Refer to John 1:1.

You are correct about Word/Logos in John 1:1. In that context it is not the same as Scripture. But I am referring to the truth of God’s Word, which is found through the Holy Scriptures. As Jesus says in John 17:17:

Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

 

[Wampa]

Are we talking about Catholics who actually regularly attend mass…or the majority of Catholics who don’t…if the latter then it’s not surprising…just because someone says they’re Catholic is meaningless if they don’t believe what the church teaches and practice their faith in their daily lives

Peebo, you’re right on track with my thinking. IMO, the more relevant finding from the same study, from my post #36:

Since this survey included Catholics who rarely or never go to Mass, I don’t find 43% to be a surprising result.

I looked at the executive summary for the survey and they found that 91% of weekly Mass attenders believe Jesus is "really present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist” (page 4). I think that’s a much more accurate depiction of what Catholics actually think.

And I duly note that Tomyris suggests in post #38 that it’s possible that’s not quite referring to transubstantiation, but within the context of the survey, I would think the questioners and the overwhelming majority of those surveyed would understand that to be a question about the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation and not related Protestant doctrines, even if it’s not as precise as it could be.

 

[friardchips]

Can you further clarify what you mean by the Word?

I noticed you capitalized it. To me the Word would be Jesus Himself, the Logos as you say in Greek.

So Protestants do better with Jesus or with Scripture?

To me Scripture is not the Word, since according to Scripture itself, the Word was already existing in the beginning. Refer to John 1:1.

PolliceVerso:

You are correct about Word/Logos in John 1:1. In that context it is not the same as Scripture. But I am referring to the truth of God’s Word, which is found through the Holy Scriptures. As Jesus says in John 17:17:

Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm

*'101 In order to reveal himself to men, in the condescension of his goodness God speaks to them in human words: "Indeed the words of God, expressed in the words of men, are in every way like human language, just as the Word of the eternal Father, when he took on himself the flesh of human weakness, became like men."63

102 Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:64

You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.65

103 For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord’s Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God’s Word and Christ’s Body.66

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God”.67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68’*

 

[Tomyris]

As Catholics we believe they do receive graces at baptism.(not sure the Presbyterian belief on baptism, off hand)

However, they sometimes don’t show evidence of a inward reality until they are 40 or 50 years old.

Poor Catechesis. Big problem here if half of Catholics don’t believe in such a fundamental pillar of faith in the Eucharist. I’d call it a crisis

Years ago we went to an event at a church that had adult Sunday School for everyone (no, they did not use that acronym to my knowledge). Church culture was that if you were a member, you went to Sunday school. All adults, normally. Every Sunday, normally. Their program was packed and growing. Their church was growing. It was their culture. It is something I have advocated since.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Years ago we went to an event at a church that had adult Sunday School for everyone (no, they did not use that acronym to my knowledge). Church culture was that if you were a member, you went to Sunday school. All adults, normally. Every Sunday, normally. Their program was packed and growing. Their church was growing. It was their culture. It is something I have advocated since.

That’s a very good idea that everybody of all branches should adopt - at least for a certain amount of time until we know everyone is informed. Proper formation is important. Heck, tempt them with good food if we have to

Honestly, as someone who sort of studied my way into the Catholic Church, I thought RCIA was going to be a total waste of time. But no, I learned things in there and bonded and am thankful I experienced it.

 

[steve_b]

Sorry if this has already been posted elsewhere, but this is mind-boggling to me:

ncregister.com/daily-news/us-bishops-encourage-greater-devotion-to-christ-in-the-eucharist

From the article:

This is basically what Protestants believe. Not only that, but it seems as many Catholics have the same low regard for the Eucharist as Protestants. One of the major reasons I have not converted to Catholicism is because I cannot accept transubstantiation. But if nearly half the Catholics in this country can’t accept it either, then why not? Should I just become Catholic or should they all become Protestant?

Don’t let the Judases inside the fold distract you. And become Catholic because it’s the Church Jesus established. #[34 (https://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11997086&postcount=34)

Re: polls
78% of Catholics don’t go to mass except maybe twice a year, Christmas and Easter. Hence the nickname C & E Catholics. They are all objectively speaking, in mortal sin. If one dies in mortal sin they go straight to hell.

Those stats come from a Georgetown Univ poll. cara.georgetown.edu/frequently-requested-church-statistics/

That said,

Is it any wonder, Jesus knowing all in advance, and being the one who will judge EVERYONE at their death, said, few make it to heaven. Matthew 7:14. ] That ought to scare the Hell out of everyone, with any brain cells to rub together.

To conclude the thought, If we deliberately blow off mass, like 78% do, the following is what one can expect. NOT MY WORDS mind you

*Heb 10: (all emphasis mine)
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see **the Day *drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment,and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Unpacking that

• The sanctuary = the altar
• hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water = those baptized
• deliberate Failure to meet on “the Day”, is already a sin with huge consequences
• “the Day” = the LORD’S DAY / Sunday, the Day Jesus resurrected from the dead
• “sacrifice for sin”, & “blood of the covenant” = celebrating the Eucharist

one might ask, how does one come to that conclusion?

Re: sacrifice for sin and blood of the covenant

Who used those terms and when were they used?

Jesus, the Son of God, the Truth, Savior of the world, whose blood and sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins, the New Covenant, is instituting the Eucharist Matthew 26:28 , Mark 14:24 ]
Do these consequences for blowing off the Eucharist on Sunday

• no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
• a fearful prospect of judgment,and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.
• who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant
• and outraged the Spirit of grace

sound like it’s only a suggestion to attend Mass on Sunday, or a command?
Does it sound like a venial sin to deliberately miss Mass on Sunday or a mortal sin?

 

[Magdalena59]

Sorry if this has already been posted elsewhere, but this is mind-boggling to me:

ncregister.com/daily-news/us-bishops-encourage-greater-devotion-to-christ-in-the-eucharist

From the article:

This is basically what Protestants believe. Not only that, but it seems as many Catholics have the same low regard for the Eucharist as Protestants. One of the major reasons I have not converted to Catholicism is because I cannot accept transubstantiation. But if nearly half the Catholics in this country can’t accept it either, then why not? Should I just become Catholic or should they all become Protestant?

I haven’t read through all the posts but my response would be similar to what someone else said. Don’t reject Peter because of Judas.

There are many reasons why many do not know or understand transubstantiation today. Some of which are: poor catechesis, modernism in the Church, false ecumenism, too many distractions in our culture that keep people from studying the faith, “peer” pressure from other faiths…

Come home to the Catholic church. Study the tenets of the Church that Christ gave us. As someone who came back to the Church several years ago, I have to say it is the best place to be on Earth. Everyday the most important thing that can happen on Earth, happens, bread and wine are turned into the body and blood of Christ, for us.

God bless.

 

[TK421]

I do not like the title of the thread “43% of Catholic reject transubstantiation” because “reject” is a hard word, when really, we can safely assume a large number and probably even a large majority of those 43% of Catholics never believed in the first place.

You will find similar or higher percentages of Catholics who reject the Culture of Life, and I am not talking about teachings like Humanae Vitae, where orthodox Catholicism has become sort of a Helm’s Deep around an ocean, but more simple things like abortion.

If you are eating a wafer, you can eat it whenever. The greatest offense you can produce is a symbolic one, like mistreating an American flag. On the other hand, it’s very different to mistreat a living president than a flag. It becomes very real. The Eucharist is a hard teaching not just because of how it defies the senses, but because of the responsibility attached to it.

 

[setarcos]

Trust Jesus at HIS Word !! He said, "This IS MY BODY, This IS MY BLOOD, do this in remembrance of ME. It is truly a Miracle every time a Mass is said by a validly ordained Catholic Priest. Trust HIM. God Bless, Memaw

I’m wondering at the word memorial…a memorial to me happens when those who we are memorializing aren’t physically present.

 

[setarcos]

Can we understand this? I can’t understand how it works. In the same way, when Christ says “This is my body” and “This is my blood” they carry with them the same power as those words “Young man, I say to you, arise.” or in Genesis “Let there be light” and it was.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

Bless you for addressing me. Not understanding the methods by which a clearly understood result is accomplished is not the same as not understanding a method not addressed by Christ, whose defigning characteristics originate from a greek whose God doesn’t resemble the Christian God, and whose results cannot be verified physically though it claims changes in the physical realm. It is beyond me as to why the Catholic church didn’t leave this as merely a mystery. Having to defign the process of transubstantiation, which christ himself didn’t address has merely caused more of God’s children to have something to disagree and argue over. It’s as if the church purposely tries to cause rifts in Gods children.