45-year-old fiancee wants birth control

[3DOCTORS]

A weird story to share with you about my discovery of how BCP’s pollute the water system. I was dating a man who took steroids and liked porno. Anyways, in Playboy he came across an article about how women who took BCP’s were polluting the water when they urinated because our water system cannot filter our the estrogen. Well, any Roid user is afraid of estrogen (man boobs). So, I was dragged to every health food store searching for water that used triple osmosis filtration to rid the water of estrogen. At last, we found it!!! Then later that month I read the same article in the Denver Catholic Registry. I thought “Hell must be freezing over if the Catholics & Playboy are in agreement”

So ironic, isn’t it! I hope you were a good influence on this guy to ditch the porn . . . or else gave him the heave-ho.

 

[MrAugust]

Forgive me again if I’m being presumptuous in saying this, but it seems in your first post on this thread you mention several areas where you and your fiancee’ are knowingly defying Church teaching, and you do give some background, then later the part about the abortion, but come across as sure you have the answers, and don’t really want to change what you’re doing.

So that makes me wonder, why ask the questions if you’re not going to approach hearing the answers with open minds and hearts - and with the willingness to possibly walk through some painful issues to enable healing and conversion to occur, which will bring with it grace and blessings? I hope that this makes some degree of sense - we all have our blind spots, I have mine as well - but we must be teachable.

It’s not that I’m not open minded, it’s that a percentage of respondents took the thread condescendingly to a place where it didn’t need to go, suggesting I should break up with her and that she needs counseling. Sorry if I wasted your time.

 

[Catholic1954]

You are not wasting our time, but I think you came here looking for answers that we can’t give. To be married in the Catholic Church, your fiancée must be open to life and it is clear that she is not. You have few choices and will like not any of them. You can marry her anyway outside of the Church, you can continue on as usual and not marry at all or you can break up with her. You can call and speak with a priest at your parish; he may be able to give you some other advice, but at some point you will have to choose between your situation and your faith.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

There are so many red flags and misinformation on both the OPs part and his fiancee.

I suggest really discerning if marriage is the answer here.

That a woman who previously has had an abortion sees no problem with the IUD is cause for concern. Especially if the IUD fails.

The OP’s lack of knowledge of either the “withdraw method” or NFP is troublesome since he will probably need to lead in this area with his soon to be wife.

The premarital sex is problematic especially for two that are older and should have developed either some theology behind this or some restraint.

The expression of regret about not having children and making mistakes in the previous marriage and the seeming willingness to make more mistakes in this one.

The expression of want of children and regret for not having them, followed with a marriage that is not open to children and a woman who has one child already and killed another. (if she realizes it or not)

The fact that all of that and then the question is posed on a Catholic forum would indicate that any advice you receive here should cause the OP to pause and really think about this.

 

[Galbin]

That a woman who previously has had an abortion sees no problem with the IUD is cause for concern. Especially if the IUD fails. .

To the OP:

Aside from the fact that the IUD is actually an abortificant contraceptive, what would you do if your wife became pregnant and wanted to abort again? It doesn’t sound like she thinks the last one was a mistake…

 

[3DOCTORS]

It’s not that I’m not open minded, it’s that a percentage of respondents took the thread condescendingly to a place where it didn’t need to go, suggesting I should break up with her and that she needs counseling. Sorry if I wasted your time.

You’re not wasting our time. We want to help. We’re trying to figure out how to help. Not every answer is going to be perfect. It seems - from your tone, and I realize it’s hard to discern that on the Internet, so please cut me a little slack if I’m mistaken - that you’re on the defensive . . .

What specifically is it that you would like help with that we might actually be able to give? :hug3: Maybe we need more of the information from you - such as why counseling won’t work, or how you each believe about the Church’s teachings on premarital sex (which beliefs are influencing your current practices), yet also seek answers in some kind of semblance to Catholic morality - just anything that would help us better understand where you’re coming from. It seems otherwise we’re all just working at cross-purposes here.

I did include you both in my prayers at Mass today.

 

[MrAugust]

To the OP:

Aside from the fact that the IUD is actually an abortificant contraceptive, what would you do if your wife became pregnant and wanted to abort again? It doesn’t sound like she thinks the last one was a mistake…

I told her that if she got pregnant I wouldn’t allow her to have an abortion.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I told her that if she got pregnant I wouldn’t allow her to have an abortion.

You are kidding right?

You.
Have.
No.
Power.
To.
Do.
That.

She can kill your kids, she does not even have to tell you about it.

What was her response? Why would you even need to say that? You would consider marrying a woman who would kill your children unless you stopped her!?

You are not thinking clearly.

 

[MrAugust]

You’re not wasting our time. We want to help. We’re trying to figure out how to help. Not every answer is going to be perfect. It seems - from your tone, and I realize it’s hard to discern that on the Internet, so please cut me a little slack if I’m mistaken - that you’re on the defensive . . .

What specifically is it that you would like help with that we might actually be able to give? :hug3: Maybe we need more of the information from you - such as why counseling won’t work, or how you each believe about the Church’s teachings on premarital sex (which beliefs are influencing your current practices), yet also seek answers in some kind of semblance to Catholic morality - just anything that would help us better understand where you’re coming from. It seems otherwise we’re all just working at cross-purposes here.

I did include you both in my prayers at Mass today.

Thank you for your prayers. That’s about the nicest thing someone I’ve never met could do for me. Appreciated.

I got defensive after someone suggested my girlfriend seek counseling for a mistake she made in the 1980’s. And yesterday someone said I don’t understand the withdrawal method, which is pretty funny, because if I didn’t understand it then I’d have at least 10 children right now.

Perhaps the prayers are what I need more than anything. Prayers that I’ll have the strength to do the right thing.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Thank you for your prayers. That’s about the nicest thing someone I’ve never met could do for me. Appreciated.

I got defensive after someone suggested my girlfriend seek counseling for a mistake she made in the 1980’s. And yesterday someone said I don’t understand the withdrawal method, which is pretty funny, because if I didn’t understand it then I’d have at least 10 children right now.

Perhaps the prayers are what I need more than anything. Prayers that I’ll have the strength to do the right thing.

Understanding the withdraw method would mean you would realize how unreliable it is.

Perhaps the prayers are what I need more than anything. Prayers that I’ll have the strength to do the right thing

You have my prayers. Last night I really did pray about your situation.

But the biggest thing for you to do is ask yourself is marrying this woman and continuing down the path you are on really the Holy thing to do?

I say this in all honesty and not to be mean. But it will sting.

Neither of you are “mature” in your views on this enough to marry.

I would really think about that. Your number one job as a spouse is to help your family get to heaven.

It sounds like you need to work on yourself before you can fulfill this calling to help others attain Sainthood.

But if you must proceed.

NFP

Take a class, learn it. Embrace it.

Otherwise, stay away from communion.

 

[shelby_sun]

Thank you for your prayers. That’s about the nicest thing someone I’ve never met could do for me. Appreciated.

I got defensive after someone suggested my girlfriend seek counseling for a mistake she made in the 1980’s. And yesterday someone said I don’t understand the withdrawal method, which is pretty funny, because if I didn’t understand it then I’d have at least 10 children right now.

Perhaps the prayers are what I need more than anything. Prayers that I’ll have the strength to do the right thing.

Please talk to someone you actually know and trust in person. I am not judging you for anything that you have mentioned, but I do wonder why are you so concerned about birth control as being sinful but not having premarital sex? Just wondering?

You cannot change you past and I completely understand your reasoning for not being completely open to having a baby at your age.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Thank you for your prayers. That’s about the nicest thing someone I’ve never met could do for me. Appreciated.

I got defensive after someone suggested my girlfriend seek counseling for a mistake she made in the 1980’s. And yesterday someone said I don’t understand the withdrawal method, which is pretty funny, because if I didn’t understand it then I’d have at least 10 children right now.

Perhaps the prayers are what I need more than anything. Prayers that I’ll have the strength to do the right thing.

I’m glad to hear it helped, and I’ll be happy to continue.

The thing about post-abortion is that sometimes people can go many years functioning normally yet still have unresolved issues with it that (often in ways they aren’t consciously aware of) affect their outlook and choices years and years later. I have a very dear friend who had an abortion also in the early 1980s and it took her about 15 years to be able to start dealing with the aftermath. She attended a Project Rachel retreat - and I and other friends came to the healing Mass they had on the final day. It was an experience I will never forget; I think I went through half a box of Kleenex. My friend also became part of the Rachel ministry to “pay it forward” and help others for several years.

In my own family - I happen to know of relatives who used the “pull-out” method and their 4th child was an “oopsie” who turned out to be their only surviving child after the other three died. To me that has signified that God has His mysterious ways - imagine if they didn’t have any of their children left, they’d be even more heartbroken. Maybe this isn’t all that relevant to you, but I include it anyway - maybe because it shows how we try to control life and we can’t always, and it’s wise to follow God’s ways and at least have a clear conscience, and that even when life gets messy and complicated, He can bring good out of evil. So I guess I’m saying use discernment and pray for the grace to follow God’s laws and believe that God has your highest good in mind.

 

[MrAugust]

Well, in response to my thinking on the withdrawal method, if I may get personal and do some self-evaluation, I think I’m using it as a rationalization because to me it’s way worse to have an abortive device inserted and kill off eggs than it is to pull out. Also, being that it is unreliable, I feel like I’m not short-changing God as much because there are more opportunities for “oopsies” that it makes me feel like He is still in control.

I’m not saying it’s the right way to think, I’m saying it’s what I feel in my gut and it’s what I’m going with right now.

As far as having premarital sex, it’s with someone I’m deeply in love with and intend to marry. Whether that marriage happens a few months from now or a year from now, I’m too weak to go that long not experiencing that with her.

I know, I’m not a very good Catholic. To those who said you can’t do much for me or give me answers, I guess you’re right.

 

[1ke]

In thinking more about your situation, I think it is more about must-have and deal-breaker discussions-- which every couple should have.

You are conflicted and concerned about her choices and clearly not OK with the direction she wants to go. Some choices have compromises-- what color you pain the house, whether you move to a new city for a job-- others do not.

Fundamental beliefs lie in the “no compromise” arena excatly because they are fundamental beliefs.

What you have to decide is if this particular issue in your life together is an area that compromises a core belief and value. And if so, whether or not it’s a deal breaker.

Everyone has deal breakers. That is what dating is about-- deciding if there are deal breakers.

A word of caution about engaging in relations with a mentality of “whoopsies” are OK while you are also conflicted about deal breakers and values-- a “whoops” can cause you to compromise or ignore in areas you could come to regret doing so, and could cause you to make rash decisions when time and objectivity are what are reallly needed.

So, morality aside, I urge you to step back from the emotional side of your relationship, and the physical, to get perspective you need on this serious issue between you.

It will be something that pervades your entire married life if you move forward, it cannot be ignored. The biggest mistake couples make is ignoring “deal breaker” issues and thinking there has to be a way around it, when really there simply isn’t or that they will simply “figure it out” later. Like how to raise children, especially in mixed faith situations. Not smart to just gloss over it and think it’s not important. It becomes VERY important when you have actual children and not imaginary “someday” children.

Not saying this thing between you now is a deal breaker, but it or something else serious might be, and you need to think about it in this manner.

Maybe that’s what you are really looking for here, not moral advice but someone to recognize how to approach the issue?Just thinking out loud.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Well, in response to my thinking on the withdrawal method, if I may get personal and do some self-evaluation, I think I’m using it as a rationalization because to me it’s way worse to have an abortive device inserted and kill off eggs than it is to pull out. Also, being that it is unreliable, I feel like I’m not short-changing God as much because there are more opportunities for “oopsies” that it makes me feel like He is still in control.

I’m not saying it’s the right way to think, I’m saying it’s what I feel in my gut and it’s what I’m going with right now.

**As far as having premarital sex, it’s with someone I’m deeply in love with and intend to marry. Whether that marriage happens a few months from now or a year from now, I’m too weak to go that long not experiencing that with her.

I know, I’m not a very good Catholic. To those who said you can’t do much for me or give me answers, I guess you’re right.**

Only you can decide if you want to change your approach to the practice of your Faith, and strive for excellence! Why settle for being less than you can be with God’s grace? The Church, you may have heard it said, isn’t a hotel for saints, it’s a hospital for sinners. And help for all us sinners is available at the nearest confessional.

I think 1ke made some good points about not kind of drifting along in the status quo and thinking if something big happens, such as a pregnancy, you’ll make it up as you go along. You owe yourself, your lady, and if there is one, your child, better than that, you see. Especially now - now is the time when you do still have some control of the outcome - but it will come at the price of being willing to delay gratification and let the will and the head be the keeper of the body and the heart. Once something such as a pregnancy occurs, everything could get all topsy-turvy, emotions run high, and impulsive decisions that could cause regret might be made.

I don’t know if there’s much else to offer but my prayers at this point, and like Pope Francis has said, the advice not to be afraid to go to Confession and head in a different direction. St. Augustine faced a similar dilemma in his day - his famous “Lord, make me chaste, but not yet” plea sounds kind of like where you’re at. Which is understandable if you’re used to sexual activity. Of course it won’t be easy to change - but mightn’t it be worth it?

 

[MrAugust]

Thanks for the responses. As far as the impulsive, emotional decision that might be made if she got pregnant, I can tell you I would never agree to abort a child. For what it’s worth.

I have one more question.

If I wait until we get married to continue having sex, but she still won’t back down on the IUD use when we’re married, am I still in grave sin?

According to this post in apologetics, a husband is not morally responsible for his wife being on birth control against his wishes:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=877911

 

[Xantippe]

MrAugust said:

“As far as the impulsive, emotional decision that might be made if she got pregnant, I can tell you I would never agree to abort a child. For what it’s worth.”

If you’re in the US or a similar country, it doesn’t matter what you agree to or don’t agree to. She could have an abortion without you ever knowing she was pregnant.

Do you trust her in this situation or do you think that she would make an impulsive decision without involving you?

 

[1ke]

Thanks for the responses. As far as the impulsive, emotional decision that might be made if she got pregnant, I can tell you I would never agree to abort a child. For what it’s worth.

No I meant the impulsive emotional decision to get marrried! Get married quickly because of the baby.

If I wait until we get married to continue having sex, but she still won’t back down on the IUD use when we’re married, am I still in grave sin?

The point of decision is before you are married. If she refuses to reconsider her path with the IUD, I would say it’s a dealbreaker. If you go into marriage knowing she plans to use it-- I would say you are complicit.

That is something to talk to your pastor about in confession or via spiritual counseling.

According to this post in apologetics, a husband is not morally responsible for his wife being on birth control against his wishes:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=877911

That is if an already married spouse innocent in the situation and is sinned against if the other spouse starts using contraception against his/her wishes.

That is not your situation. You are not already married. You can choose to remove yourself from the sinful situation by not moving forward with marriage.

Also, such counsel regarding relations with a contracepting spouse must be under the guidance of the pastor in the confessional and meet the criteria laid out in the document Vademecum for Confessors. It is not something you can simply decide for yourself.

 

[3DOCTORS]

It seems to me that the questions and situations involved are to the point where big decisions need to be made, and a lot of internal and external conflict is going on - more than a forum like this can help you resolve (though it’s great if some of what’s been said by various people has helped up to a point). Maybe it’s time to bite the bullet and make an appointment with a priest? One by yourself for starters, then one with your intended; hopefully she’ll be willing to go? If she isn’t . . . well, that may signal a rocky road ahead.

Still praying . . .

 

[Megan7]

We, as a culture, are brainwashed to read every little ingredient on our food labels; even to the point the government dictates how restaurants arrange their menu’s.

Now, we are also brain washed to blindly follow doctors orders; without reading the labels of the prescription medicine. Now, among the many side effects of these medicines, a serious consideration is stroke. Check it out: ehealthme.com/ds/mirena/stroke
Now she is in the danger age for these medicines. Other side effects are moodiness, weight gain, acnehttp://m.steadyhealth.com/Birth_control_pills_made_my_acne_worse__t87943.html?page=3, water pollution, and change in olfactory perception.

A weird story to share with you about my discovery of how BCP’s pollute the water system. I was dating a man who took steroids and liked porno. Anyways, in Playboy he came across an article about how women who took BCP’s were polluting the water when they urinated because our water system cannot filter our the estrogen. Well, any Roid user is afraid of estrogen (man boobs). So, I was dragged to every health food store searching for water that used triple osmosis filtration to rid the water of estrogen. At last, we found it!!! Then later that month I read the same article in the Denver Catholic Registry. I thought “Hell must be freezing over if the Catholics & Playboy are in agreement”. forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/06/03/women-on-contraceptive-pill-should-pay-1500-a-year-more-tax/

Later, this same man found in an old “Psychology Today” article about how. BCP’s change a woman’s olfactory senses, resulting in her picking a spouse who was like her father/brother in smell … While in picking a mate, she NEEDS to pick a spouse with a different smell. This mismatch resulted in her revolted by the smell of her husband after she stopped taking BCP’s.

Lastly, I have read that In the 2005 world health organization named the birth control pill as a group 1 carcinogen along side with radium, asbestos, & cigarette. 30% increase of breast cancer due to BCP.

With or without moral conscience, there is great pause on this medicine doctors hand out like candy. I urge you both to seek together how the moral conscience is skewed to help your relationship.

Thanks for your post. Please provide me the name of the filter you found. The name & where you bought it, Amazon or where?

I am convinced that the increase in breast cancer, the increase in homosexuals is due in part to the excessive estrogen in our water. As well, as all of the food we consume that comes with plastic wrapping (mimics estrogen) And of course the heavy consumption of soy. Every time we turn around, someone is either gay or Bi, etc. So, please let me know the name of the filter. Thanks
God Bless you.

Prayers for the OP & his situation. You are getting good advice.