5 Points of Calvinism

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(T)otal depravity
(U)nconditional election
(L)imited atonement
(I)rresistible grace
(P)erseverance of the saints

A Catholic Christian brother asked several excellent questions about the 5 points of Calvinism on another thread. Here is a thread to ask questions and discuss the issues. I appeal to all participants, let’s discuss this topic with mutual gentleness and respect, as we are commanded to by our Triune God. The 5 Points of Calvinism is not the gospel, but are very important issues related to Christian growth. Some Protestant are Calvinists, some are Arminians, some blend both Calvinism and Arminianism in their beliefs. Since Calvinism has strong influence by Saint Augustine, you might be surprised by what the Magestrium allows you to believe as a Catholic on these issues. I believe the gospel of John and Romans are the two major books which supports the 5 points of Calvinism. I believe Calvinism is the systematic theology which glorifies God above all other Christian theologies. The main focus of Calvinism is the sovereignty and glory of God, and the 5 points are understood within those two points. I believe the main strenght of Calvinism is the Bible. I believe Calvinism is a God-centered and God glorifying theology.

I think we should read this Catholic source as a primer for our thread:

newadvent.org/cathen/11604a.htm
 
Reformed said:
(T)otal depravity
(U)nconditional election
(L)imited atonement
(I)rresistible grace
(P)erseverance of the saints
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I think that it might be benifical to identify these concepts a little more thoroughly. I will define each of the 5 points as I understand them. Please correct me if I get something wrong.

Total depravity – That because of the fall in the garden, our souls are so damaged that we are incapable of pleasing God. We cannot even love Him.

Unconditional election – That God chose at the beginning of time who would be saved and who would go to Hell. Man plays absolutely no role in salvation.

Limited atonement – This relates to those few that God has chosen to provide salvation to. Jesus Christ died on the cross, not for the entire world, but only for “the elect” chosen at the beginning of time.

Irresistible grace – This deals with the grace which God gives to those He has elected to be saved. The point of irresistible grace says that these individuals cannot resist the grace given. In other words, they may not freely choose to reject God.

Perseverance of the saints – The elect that God has destined for Heaven, may not lose their salvation. It is an absolute. A form of OSAS.
Reformed said:
A Catholic Christian brother asked several excellent questions about the 5 points of Calvinism on another thread. Here is a thread to ask questions and discuss the issues. I appeal to all participants, let’s discuss this topic with mutual gentleness and respect, as we are commanded to by our Triune God. The 5 Points of Calvinism is not the gospel, but are very important issues related to Christian growth. Some Protestant are Calvinists, some are Arminians, some blend both Calvinism and Arminianism in their beliefs. Since Calvinism has strong influence by Saint Augustine, you might be surprised by what the Magestrium allows you to believe as a Catholic on these issues.
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Concerning Augustine and predestination, I will simply post this link from the EWTN website:
ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/AUGUSTIN.htm
As for the Magestrium and the 5 points of Calvinism agreeing, I must disagree. I believe that the Church has issues with all five points of TULIP but most certainly it does not agree with Limited Atonement. Neither does the Church support that salvation is given to individuals without their individual consent. In other words, Catholicism supports the truth that humanity has free will.
Reformed said:
I believe the gospel of John and Romans are the two major books which supports the 5 points of Calvinism. I believe Calvinism is the systematic theology which glorifies God above all other Christian theologies. The main focus of Calvinism is the sovereignty and glory of God, and the 5 points are understood within those two points. I believe the main strenght of Calvinism is the Bible. I believe Calvinism is a God-centered and God glorifying theology.

I think we should read this Catholic source as a primer for our thread:

newadvent.org/cathen/11604a.htm
Click to expand...
I will attempt to comment on this at a later time as I do not have the time, at this moment, to finish reading from the Catholic Encyclopedia link that you supplied.
 
I am afraid that I don’t debate Calvinism any more having gone through the process waaayyyy too much in my Protestant years. My only contribution will be to suggest an excellent book by Jimmy Akin on the Catholic view, The Salvation Controversy. It is balanced and presents both sides. The great thing about being Catholic is, that since the Church has not defined either side as doctrine, I don’t have to fuss with it any more.

BTW - I have always leaned toward the free-will and away from the Calvinist side. Not that this matters.
 
I am afraid that I don’t debate Calvinism any more having gone through the process waaayyyy too much in my Protestant years. My only contribution will be to suggest an excellent book by Jimmy Akin on the Catholic view, The Salvation Controversy. It is balanced and presents both sides. The great thing about being Catholic is, that since the Church has not defined either side as doctrine, I don’t have to fuss with it any more.

BTW - I have always leaned toward the free-will and away from the Calvinist side. Not that this matters.
 
I only have a second but wanted to add this link for you to read while I go about reading the link that you provided.
 
Tietjen said:
Irresistible grace – This deals with the grace which God gives to those He has elected to be saved. The point of irresistible grace says that these individuals cannot resist the grace given. In other words, they may not freely choose to reject God.
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That isn’t quite how they would say it. To be more technical, it means that the Spirit will regenerate the elect in due time. Once the elect are regenerate, they freely choose God. It’s a change in the person’s nature from dead to alive. The person couldn’t choose God before because they were dead in sin. Once made alive, their wills are freed to choose Christ.
 
TriuneUnity said:
That isn’t quite how they would say it. To be more technical, it means that the Spirit will regenerate the elect in due time. Once the elect are regenerate, they freely choose God. It’s a change in the person’s nature from dead to alive. The person couldn’t choose God before because they were dead in sin. Once made alive, their wills are freed to choose Christ.
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Ok, **irresistible grace **is the more fascinating one to me. I have yet to get a clear explanation of this. Not even RC Sproul’s explanations helped. So if I understand right, a Calvinist would not say that God gives His elect grace such that the person MUST accept it and go to heaven.

What I am reading from your quote is that the elect will receive the Spirit which perfects the person’s will such that he will choose to follow Christ.

And that the person has no opportunity to reject the Spirit’s regeneration either?
 
MarcoPolo said:
Ok, **irresistible grace **is the more fascinating one to me. I have yet to get a clear explanation of this. Not even RC Sproul’s explanations helped. So if I understand right, a Calvinist would not say that God gives His elect grace such that the person MUST accept it and go to heaven.

What I am reading from your quote is that the elect will receive the Spirit which perfects the person’s will such that he will choose to follow Christ.

And that the person has no opportunity to reject the Spirit’s regeneration either?
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It would state that regeneration results in the person always choosing Christ because that person is no longer dead to God.

It would say the elect have no active decision making power in regards to regeneration. They’re entirely passive.
 
My girlfriend is a big fan on calvinism and is trying to convert me. She will watch Les Feldick in the morning at 6:00 am. He has been recently converting her to calvinism. Is anyone else a fan of Les Feldick?
 
TriuneUnity said:
It would state that regeneration results in the person always choosing Christ because that person is no longer dead to God.

It would say the elect have no active decision making power in regards to regeneration. They’re entirely passive.
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Ok, so there are 2 occasions we’re talking about:
  1. The Spirit comes upon the elect person and he is regenerated. The person has no will in the matter to accept or reject the Spirit on this occasion.
  2. After this, the elect person is faced with accepting or rejecting Christ. He is free to do either, but because the Spirit filled him apart from his consent, he will therefore always choose Christ.
 
MarcoPolo said:
Ok, so there are 2 occasions we’re talking about:
  1. The Spirit comes upon the elect person and he is regenerated. The person has no will in the matter to accept or reject the Spirit on this occasion.
  2. After this, the elect person is faced with accepting or rejecting Christ. He is free to do either, but because the Spirit filled him apart from his consent, he will therefore always choose Christ.
Click to expand...
Yep. That’s pretty much it. The non-elect never receive the Spirit in grace at all, but only receive an outward call to repent and believe the Gospel. Only the elect receive the inward call which always regenerates.

Now the logical question for any Calvinist is; how do you know you’ve received the inward call?
 
MarcoPolo said:
Ok, **irresistible grace **is the more fascinating one to me. I have yet to get a clear explanation of this. Not even RC Sproul’s explanations helped. So if I understand right, a Calvinist would not say that God gives His elect grace such that the person MUST accept it and go to heaven.

What I am reading from your quote is that the elect will receive the Spirit which perfects the person’s will such that he will choose to follow Christ.

And that the person has no opportunity to reject the Spirit’s regeneration either?
Click to expand...
I have seen it explained by Calvinists as something like this.

The unregenerate actually do have freewill. However because of their fallen nature they will always choose to reject God. A comparison is made to a hungry tiger that has a pile of raw meat and a pile of hay in front of it. The tiger is free to eat the hay if it wanted to, but because of its nature it would always choose the meat.

Once regeneration takes place, the new nature is such that man’s freewill will now always choose God. It is as if a horse were put in the place of the tiger in the example above.

God has made the election but the person still accepts due to his changed nature as a second cause.
 
Hi, All
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed
(T)otal depravity
(U)nconditional election
(L)imited atonement
(I)rresistible grace
(P)erseverance of the saints

Total depravity – That because of the fall in the garden, our souls are so damaged that we are incapable of pleasing God. We cannot even love Him.

Quote=OneNow1, Let’s see what God has to say about this:Genesis. 3: 6-7.
Yahweh asked Cain why are you angry and downcast ? If you are doing right surely you ought to hold your head up high. If you are not, sin is crouching at the door. You can still master him.

Unconditional election – That God chose at the beginning of time who would be saved and who would go to Hell. Man plays absolutely no role in salvation.

Quote=OneNow1. Previous answer negates this assertion.

Also: We are all called to take up our own crosses.

Limited atonement – This relates to those few that God has chosen to provide salvation to. Jesus Christ died on the cross, not for the entire world, but only for “the elect” chosen at the beginning of time.

Ditto

Irresistible grace – This deals with the grace which God gives to those He has elected to be saved. The point of irresistible grace says that these individuals cannot resist the grace given. In other words, they may not freely choose to reject God.

Ditto

Perseverance of the saints – The elect that God has destined for Heaven, may not lose their salvation. It is an absolute. A form of OSAS

This perseverance of the saints is a win win situation for tulip believers. I place a ditto here also.

Peace, OneNow1

P.S. Jesus asked the Father in the garden, if it be possible let this cup pass from me, yet not my will but yours.] Seems to me there’s two wills involved here, God’s and Jesus human will.
 
Tietjen said:
I think that it might be benifical to identify these concepts a little more thoroughly. I will define each of the 5 points as I understand them. Please correct me if I get something wrong.

Total depravity – That because of the fall in the garden, our souls are so damaged that we are incapable of pleasing God. We cannot even love Him.

Unconditional election – That God chose at the beginning of time who would be saved and who would go to Hell. Man plays absolutely no role in salvation.

Limited atonement – This relates to those few that God has chosen to provide salvation to. Jesus Christ died on the cross, not for the entire world, but only for “the elect” chosen at the beginning of time.

Irresistible grace – This deals with the grace which God gives to those He has elected to be saved. The point of irresistible grace says that these individuals cannot resist the grace given. In other words, they may not freely choose to reject God.

Perseverance of the saints – The elect that God has destined for Heaven, may not lose their salvation. It is an absolute. A form of OSAS.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your interest. I think your descriptions are partially correct, with much misrepresentation of what Calvinists actually believe. LOL…you probably got this from non-Calvinist’s site, right? We also need to make a distinction between biblical Calvinism and hyper-Calvinism (heretical). There is a balance between the responsibility of man and the sovereignity of God…which is quite a mystery. I’m not saying that the Magestrium supports any of the 5 points, but I would consider Rome to be more Calvinistic than many would assume. Another nickname for Calvinism is Augustinianism. If you want to go beyond our discussion, here is the site for self study on Calvinism.

monergism.com/directory/link_category/Doctrines-of-Grace/

Another name for the 5 Points of Calvinism is the “Doctrines of Grace”.
 
If anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10). If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, or that we can be saved by assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the effectual work of the Holy Spirit, who makes all whom He calls gladly and willingly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray from the plain teaching of Scripture by exalting the natural ability of man, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, “For apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, “Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5).

Adapted from The Council of Orange (529 AD)

monergism.com/directory/link_category/Doctrines-of-Grace/
 
Marco Polo:
Ok, irresistible grace is the more fascinating one to me. I have yet to get a clear explanation of this. Not even RC Sproul’s explanations helped. So if I understand right, a Calvinist would not say that God gives His elect grace such that the person MUST accept it and go to heaven.
Click to expand...
Using your terms, the opposite is true—he must accept it, and he must go to heaven.
Marco Polo:
What I am reading from your quote is that the elect will receive the Spirit which perfects the person’s will such that he will choose to follow Christ.
Click to expand...
Not perfect, but “make alive,” to the Spirit, and to the truth of the Gospel.
Marco Polo:
And that the person has no opportunity to reject the Spirit’s regeneration either?
Click to expand...
A rejection of God’s grace may occur over many years; however, ultimately, the Spirit will regenerate, repentance will occur, the Gospel will be embraced, and salvation “completed.”
Marco Polo:
Ok, so there are 2 occasions we’re talking about:
  1. The Spirit comes upon the elect person and he is regenerated. The person has no will in the matter to accept or reject the Spirit on this occasion.
Click to expand...
Everyone has a will in the matter; regeneration enables repentance, belief, etc.
Marco Polo:
  1. After this, the elect person is faced with accepting or rejecting Christ. He is free to do either, but because the Spirit filled him apart from his consent, he will therefore always choose Christ.
Click to expand...
Explain why you think the Spirit fills him apart from his consent, and why you think God needs anyone’s consent to fulfill the purpose of His will?
 
pnewton said:
I am afraid that I don’t debate Calvinism any more having gone through the process waaayyyy too much in my Protestant years. My only contribution will be to suggest an excellent book by Jimmy Akin on the Catholic view, The Salvation Controversy. It is balanced and presents both sides. The great thing about being Catholic is, that since the Church has not defined either side as doctrine, I don’t have to fuss with it any more.

BTW - I have always leaned toward the free-will and away from the Calvinist side. Not that this matters.
Click to expand...
I think what I highlighted is a very important statement… especially in the light of Augustine. 🙂
 
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