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GeorgeSword
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When I use the DR I usually use the one on New Advent. The one at drbo.org has links to the SSPX which kind of makes me uncomfortable with it.
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thunderballs75
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I know you are a man of good will, so I am not trying to be hostile to you. However, I don’t subscribe to relativism. I do not boast of it either. I was not always a Catholic. My parents never raised me in the Christian religion. But it doesn’t make sense to say that “everybody is right” because it creates a paradox. If I am right, then our beliefs that we are the one Church are right. If Muslims are also right, then they are correct that our beliefs are false. And it is really just a huge mess. There are absolute truths and absolute morals. The Apostles and all of the Church Fathers tried very hard to keep the Church unified, and were very keenly against heretics. It isn’t just something the Catholics invented.Every single one of those “denominations” could make the same claim against catholicism… or Judaism… or Islam… or Budhism…or Wicca… need I go on? To boast as being the “One True Church” seems just a wee bit arrogant. Since Vatican II, even the Catholic Church has quietly backed off on making that claim!
Following the Christ as presented in the New Testament makes the most sense to me.
Following Christ in the New Testament is the best idea. And we must follow Him correctly. Jesus Christ our Lord set up one Church. Now, you could make a case for the Eastern Orthodox Churches, that maybe the schism was mostly due to political and/or cultural reasons. But He said “I am the way the truth and the life” as you could find in the Gospel according to St.John. He did not say “There are many ways, truths, and lives.”
Again, I do not think you are an evil man, or that you have any bad intentions. You probably say everything out of true charity. But I do completely disagree with you.
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StrawberryJam
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Simillar. Not the same. In this case, it is a huge difference.Actually, Lutherans have the same views Catholics do on the Eucharist.
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r4j
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Dear brother or sister - this was not a boast or a display of arrogance. It is the truth as revealed by truth itself - God. This is what my faith i.e. Jesus, teaches me. This is not to say that anyone who is not Catholic is a bad person or out of luck when it comes to heaven. As I heard a priest say one time - ‘don’t worry about how others will get to heaven -I’m sure God has some back doors - just always work on your own salvation - and by doing so, you may help others with theirs.’To boast as being the “One True Church” seems just a wee bit arrogant. Since Vatican II, even the Catholic Church has quietly backed off on making that claim!
Following the Christ as presented in the New Testament makes the most sense to me.
I’m a little concerned about the emphasis on ‘just following the New Testament’ Jesus. My understanding is that Jesus didn’t abolish the Old but fulfilled it. There is some great wisdom and teaching in the Old.
There also seems to be a tremendous amount of emphasis on the bible in some of these posts and I realize that some are not Catholic but as Catholics, we are taught, that divine relevation is 1) Sacred Scripture, 2)Sacred Tradition - the oral teaching of Jesus Christ and 3)the Magisterium of the church. One of these cannot exist with the other two.
As for the Eastern church, from what I understand, they are fully Catholic because they are united to the bishop of Rome, the Pope. They have different discplines though.
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da_nolo
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how bout this, study each past. study the past of both i mean. both as you may see carry an arrange of good and bad within their history. Do not be frightened by the bad, as we are all human and even the most holy of men have sinned in their life. What makes us Saints however is our ability to learn from our mistakes and still move on to repent. As you study, right away you’ll recognise there to being a bunch of information that both sides share. also; baptists, and what ever more kind of non-Catholic Christian religions you may think of are in reality protestant (even through their little disputes). What one may also realize would be the thousands and thousands of ways to better one’s own self. So I would agree there is a lot to go on if your stuck in-between.
Now heres what did it for me. St. Peter is the Rock to which Jesus declared to build His Church upon. St. Peter is the second Pope (get it, second…first being Jesus
), there is no question about attitude towards heavenly Virtues (which appear to be an awsome means to strenghten one’s soul), the origional Bible was infact written within the same Church to which we now refer to as Catholic, other protestants declare different Bibles as the one Bible even through the differences from the historical origional (I know there have been changes through out time to occur on both spectrums, however it would appear to be less on Catholic side), there are no on-line, tv special, call now deals even with many masses being displayed through media, did I mintion a richer history?, we are declared to be an extension of Judiasm/not a better or newer form of it nor declared war on it. (thats right stick it to the word said=war), we shared a sense of pain under nazi rule though it was not the same, much of the termoil within the world has been best explainned through hundreds of documents that may all be broken down into the expression of deadly sins vs. heavenly virtues, I agree in the over all statement about our spirits, Mass is mass, not to be reffered to as Chruch as Mass is done within the Church within the people, etc. etc. etc. My list may go on longer than this, but there is just not enough time. lets move onso those are my reasons and to realy understand your own you must search within you. if you search your feelings, well why pic on behave of your feelings? know what I mean? its like you said, choose what may better bring you to Christ/God. the best means I could think of is to study Jesus. just take some time to read the Bible and study His teachings. from there pray. I wouldn’t go all over and constantly pray in vain for an answer, but simply take the time to thank Him, understand?
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Just_Lurking
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Start off in a Protestant denomination that believes in OSAS, and then convert to Catholicism. That way you are 100% covered.
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Bluegoat
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Ah, but the Lutherans say their sacrament IS valid. You are assuming that the Catholics are correct in saying it isn’t. In a discussion about choosing a correct denomination, you can’t really assume one groups view of the others is accurate, you have to consider each according to their own claims.
I am not sure all Lutherans actually subscribe to con-substantiation - I suspect that many simply take the viewpoint that the mechanics of the change are a Mystery.
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Writer
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God is not some capricious judge ready to damn you at your slightest error. Let God guide your heart, mind, and spirit to the correct decision, to truth. You obviously care deeply, so the seeds just need some watering. As a former Lutheran myself, I don’t believe that Protestants are damned if they truly love God and are in ignorance over the larger issues.
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yellowbird
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This made me giggle.
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Agabus
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Some Orthodox apologists argue that all Christians are in fact in some mysterious way part of the Orthodox Church, though they may not realize it and though they are not in full communion with the Church. I don’t know if this is standard belief in Orthodox circles, or is just theologumenia.
I have heard a similar argument from Catholic apologists, but you guys have the magisterium, and I have no idea if that’s a teaching faithful to it.
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StillWondering
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Well if you’re a sinner, instead of worrying about Heaven or Hell, maybe Purgatory is your goal. It maybe terribly tough there, but hey it only leads up and not down =).
From a weak Catholic I can tell you that in my heart and mind I know that authentic teachings of the Church are correct, but definitely not always easy to live by.
I think Matthew 7:21-23 is something to think about.
From a weak Catholic I can tell you that in my heart and mind I know that authentic teachings of the Church are correct, but definitely not always easy to live by.
I think Matthew 7:21-23 is something to think about.
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da_nolo
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or the assumption Jesus was right in there being no right in a person’s own declaration towards their holiness and therefore we must follow from Jesus to Apostles, to their followers and the following followers, until today. Maybe it’s my own oppinion, but I don’t think that line would follow someone who stepped out and declaired his own opinion as correct. I have nothing against any other Christian denomination different then my own, but think of me as a nationalist. if there was a problem with any group you fix it from within not run off to start your own. like I said thats just me and how I think.
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Bluegoat
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Most Orthodox, in my reading, will say that many people outside of the true Church (Orthodoxy) may be saved; and if they are, it is through Christ and through the church. And they recognize Christians as being related to them in a way others are not. Baptisms, for example, of other denominations may be “real” and in that case they have been baptised into the True Church, though they don’t know it.
On the other hand, they can be more exclusive than Catholicism in many ways. For them, for example, there is no access to the Eucharist outside of the True Church; even a priest who has left the Church can no longer perform a valid Eucharist, because he is cut off from the Church. Apostolic succession has similar difficulties, so they concider that all non-Orthodox have lost Apostolic succession.
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chaunceygardner
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Amen.
StillWondering pointed to Matthew 7:21-23 for guidance. I suggest you read the verse after those as well, paying particular attention to the first word:
"Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock."
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Alindawyl
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The Catholic Church officially teaches exactly the same thing.
Catholic priests who place themselves outside the Church, by schism or excommunication or whatever, are not permitted to offer the Mass either. It would be an illicit act on the part of the priest (although the Mass itself would most likely still be valid) to offer the Mass when not in communion with the Church.
I know that the Russian Orthodox consider the Catholic Church to have valid Apostolic succession. I can’t speak for any others, such as the Greek Orthodox or any of the Oriental Orthodox churches, as I simply don’t know in their case.
On the whole there’s very little difference between Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. The language of the liturgy is different, as well as some of the terms and historical disciplinary practices based on culture. But beliefs are almost identical.
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Bluegoat
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Yes, the difference is that for the Orthodox, the priest could not perform the Mass, not that it wouldn’t be permitted. Which is why they say that Catholicism doesn’t actually have the Eucharist, nor of course the Protestants. It points to a different understanding of the relationship of the sacraments to the Church.
I am not sure I would agree with this. I suppose it depends on what you are comparing them to though - they are certainly more similar than Catholics and Protestants.
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EphelDuath
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Eastern Orthodox and Catholics both believe each other have valid sacraments. The schism is in regards to who is the temporal vicar of the Church on earth; of course, there are also a few theological differences (the Dormition vs. the Assumption of Mary, divorce and remarriage, the Filioque), but none of this makes them invalid to the other.
Admittedly, there are a few die-hards on each side that say that the other has become invalid. They are a tiny minority.
Admittedly, there are a few die-hards on each side that say that the other has become invalid. They are a tiny minority.
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thunderballs75
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The Dormition isn’t in contradiction to the Assumption. Both believe in the Assumption. The Catholic Church neither denies nor accepts the Dormition, so believers may choose to believe in it. All Eastern Catholics believe in the Dormition though, and I do as well. Divorce and remarriage are a little different. The Filioque may be one theological difference, but I think this shouldn’t be too hard to fix.
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EphelDuath
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I see! This is interesting.
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