50% wine & 50% water in the Eucharist.

[GEddie]

They would have to be those mini-Oreos, or else you’d get crumbs. To boost attendence, we tried it in our parish.

Just kidding.

The priests most concerned with saving a little wine might be missionaries. Isn’t wheat bread the only requirement?

No, wine is definitely a requirement; and since the cost of liturgical wine is almost certainly a minor part of the costs in missionary activity, dilution of wine wouldn’t help much.

ICXC NIKA

 

[ConstantineTG]

That’s just the question, though: does it “all turn into the body and blood” no matter what it is? Or, as in Catholic and Orthodox sacramental theology, does the matter matter?

Definitely in the East we’re not as picky about mixing more water with the Precious Blood, or placing the Precious Body in blessed wine. As I mentioned, part of the tradition is to make the Eucharist warm before giving Communion, so hot water is added to the chalice just before Communion. And during the Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts, we have the Precious Body of Christ which has been consecrated at an earlier Divine Liturgy. But because wine doesn’t keep as well as the bread, the Precious Blood is not kept after Divine Liturgy, so during Presanctified Liturgy the Precious Body is intincted into wine that has been blessed.

 

[Sam_777]

From most posts I understand now that it was not “50-50” ratio!

But I saw the Pastor pouring from one small red bottle (which I believe was a wine) and another small white bottle (which I believe was a water) into a third golden cup and mixing them with his hand, he held the two bottles exactly the same amount of time, so I assume that was 50-50 ratio!

However, still I cannot find a satisfactory answer on why few drops of red wine into a cup of grape juice would not have the same effect!, isn’t the red wine suppose to reflect Jesus blood, so I believe few holy drops should turn a sea of juice into wine. :heaven:

 

[Filii_Dei]

But I saw the Pastor pouring from one small red bottle (which I believe was a wine) and another small white bottle (which I believe was a water) into a third golden cup and mixing them with his hand, he held the two bottles exactly the same amount of time, so I assume that was 50-50 ratio!

With his hand? Somebody please tell me that’s permitted.

However, still I cannot find a satisfactory answer on why few drops of red wine into a cup of grape juice would not have the same effect!, isn’t the red wine suppose to reflect Jesus blood, so I believe few holy drops should turn a sea of juice into wine. :heaven:

I hope Fr Edward McNamara’s piece on this may shed some light, where he quotes St. Justin Martyr:
ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur39.htm

For because Christ bore us all, in that He also bore our sins, we see that in the water is understood the people, but in the wine is showed the blood of Christ. But when the water is mingled in the cup with wine, the people [are] made one with Christ, and the assembly of believers is associated and conjoined with Him on whom it believes; which association and conjunction of water and wine is so mingled in the Lord’s cup, that that mixture cannot any more be separated.

Therefore, when mixing water with wine, it is out of humility that we show that we are merely a drop in his infinite power. I think it would be symbolically disingenuous to suggest that the assembly of believers overwhelms our Lord.

In any case, the wine is what is absolutely necessary for the validity of the consecration, while the water is symbolically critical.

 

[Sam_777]

With his hand? Somebody please tell me that’s permitted.

I mean holding the cup in his hand and just shake it so the two liquids mix.

 

[Filii_Dei]

I mean holding the cup in his hand and just shake it so the two liquids mix.

Phew.

 

[Sam_777]

Therefore, when mixing water with wine, it is out of humility that we show that we are merely a drop in his infinite power. I think it would be symbolically disingenuous to suggest that the assembly of believers overwhelms our Lord.

Interesting link, but why not understand it the other way around!, that just one drop (wine) can purify many water/juice (people).

 

[rhiannonh]

That’s just the question, though: does it “all turn into the body and blood” no matter what it is? Or, as in Catholic and Orthodox sacramental theology, does the matter matter?

To be honest that is my question…

So you would worry about the brand of wine too if you are not satisfied about it being ribena or grapefruit juice or any red colouring drink? For in essence if it does change into the blood of Jesus Christ (and body)

then

really - what you are parkinging in is the blood of Jesus Christ and not the

wine/juice/pop… that you are drinking from the chalice.

 

[japhy]

So you would worry about the brand of wine too…

Jesus used wine, and according to the Jewish practice at the time (and continued in the Christian tradition) that wine would have been mixed with water. Christians have considered that essential: wine with water. (Not using water is probably still valid in extreme situations.)

Jesus used wine because of the context of the institution of the Eucharist. We don’t care what brand of wine it was: it suffices that it is grape wine.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Interesting link, but why not understand it the other way around!, that just one drop (wine) can purify many water/juice (people).

Because the result will look nothing like wine, and it would symbolically also suggest the body of many believers dilutes the glory of God unto such an extent we can no longer see God?

Just my overactive imagination, don’t mind.

 

[rowlands]

Definitely in the East we’re not as picky about mixing more water with the Precious Blood, or placing the Precious Body in blessed wine. As I mentioned, part of the tradition is to make the Eucharist warm before giving Communion, so hot water is added to the chalice just before Communion. And during the Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts, we have the Precious Body of Christ which has been consecrated at an earlier Divine Liturgy. But because wine doesn’t keep as well as the bread, the Precious Blood is not kept after Divine Liturgy, so during Presanctified Liturgy the Precious Body is intincted into wine that has been blessed.

A small amount of water is poured into the wine at the prothesis, but never an excessive amount - likewise with the zeon/teplota (hot water) - never so much as to dilute the wine beyond recognition.

Re the Presanctified Liturgy: correct practice is for the priest to invert the consecrated Lamb (bread) on the diskos and, using the spoon, pour some Blood (wine) into the cross cut in the underside of the Lamb, which is then allowed to dry (obviously this takes time and the Lamb is normally kept partially covered to allow this). When the gifts are to be reserved for the sick the drying and cutting into portions is carried out with extreme care - some traditions also apply gentle heating to accelerate and to complete drying.

Regarding the wine at the presanctified liturgy, technically this is not blessed - the priest pours wine and water into the chalice ‘as customary, but says nothing’ - it is a vehicle for distribution of communion to the faithful (similarly at the communion of the sick) since the Lamb itself has been intincted with the Blood of Christ. There is some debate whether the wine in the chalice is ‘consecrated’ at the presanctified when a portion of the intincted Lamb is placed into it after the fraction. In the Russian tradition the priest, when serving with a deacon, drinks from the chalice after eating a portion of the Lamb; where there is no deacon he does not since he remains ‘fasting’ until after the consumption of the remains of the Holy Gifts. Where a deacon serves he does not drink from the chalice after communion since he will consume the remains after the communion of the faithful. . In some other ethnic traditions there is less clarity - some priests and deacons do drink from the chalice immediately after consuming the intincted Lamb and later go on to consume the remains of the Holy Gifts.

 

[Digitonomy]

"svid2:

The priests most concerned with saving a little wine might be missionaries.

since the cost of liturgical wine is almost certainly a minor part of the costs in missionary activity, dilution of wine wouldn’t help much.ICXC NIKA

Cost isn’t the only reason to be miserly with wine. If the supply wagon only makes it to the village twice a year, and grape wine is not available locally, it may not be practical to keep a large supply of wine on hand.

 

[Lapey]

From most posts I understand now that it was not “50-50” ratio!

But I saw the Pastor pouring from one small red bottle (which I believe was a wine) and another small white bottle (which I believe was a water) into a third golden cup and mixing them with his hand, he held the two bottles exactly the same amount of time, so I assume that was 50-50 ratio!

However, still I cannot find a satisfactory answer on why few drops of red wine into a cup of grape juice would not have the same effect!, isn’t the red wine suppose to reflect Jesus blood, so I believe few holy drops should turn a sea of juice into wine. :heaven:

What would be a satisfactory answer for you? It is what it is. The requirement is wine for the sacrament. Water is mixed with the wine from the old Jewish tradition from the time of Jesus.

“By the mingling of this water and wine, may we come to share in the divinity of Christ.” This is the prayer the priest or deacon recites when adding a “little water” into the wine. The quoted parts are from the directives of how to prepare the gifts for consecration.

The matter to be offered is wine, not dirty water. If the water is omitted the sacrament is still valid, if the wine is watered down to the point that it is not wine any longer, it is not.

Doesn’t really matter what we think is okay or not, it matters what the Church has held true since the Last Supper.

Strongest point I make is this, this celebration is no symbol. It is not a representation. What we DO is what Jesus told us to DO, He said, “DO this in memory of Me.” Not do this while you REMEMBER me. Grape juice can represent anything you would like it to, but it is not wine and can never be consecrated into the Precious Blood of Christ.

 

[rhiannonh]

Jesus used wine, and according to the Jewish practice at the time (and continued in the Christian tradition) that wine would have been mixed with water. Christians have considered that essential: wine with water. (Not using water is probably still valid in extreme situations.)

Jesus used wine because of the context of the institution of the Eucharist. We don’t care what brand of wine it was: it suffices that it is grape wine.

He did but not as the wine we know of it today

Remember the water then will have been so unclean and wine would have been more safe. But certainly be nothing like the wine we have even in communion today. It would vary some very rough stuff and some not so bad by pure chance. Alcohol be clean compared to untreated water.

 

[ConstantineTG]

A small amount of water is poured into the wine at the prothesis, but never an excessive amount - likewise with the zeon/teplota (hot water) - never so much as to dilute the wine beyond recognition.

Of course we don’t inundate it with water. But the Slavic Churches do use more water than the Greek ones. Perhaps because in the past as the tradition evolved, our churches were just much colder and thus the Eucharist needs more warming. But its still a significant amount as I have seen. Our parish normally doesn’t do it just because the lack of resources around the altar. I wish we would have more servers to assist the priest.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

He did but not as the wine we know of it today

Remember the water then will have been so unclean and wine would have been more safe. But certainly be nothing like the wine we have even in communion today. It would vary some very rough stuff and some not so bad by pure chance. Alcohol be clean compared to untreated water.

Being He was a Jew the wine was probably Mogan David (just kidding).

 

[dochawk]

It’s worth going further to say that ‘grape juice’ also would not suffice since it is not wine. There must be some fermentation to make it ‘wine’,

I believe that it is rather “capable of fermentation,” not “some fermentation.”

As a practical matter, small amounts of fermentation will begin the moment the grape is crushed–the appropriate yeast occurs naturally on the grapeskin. Most vintners add the same type of yeast in massive quantities to speed it up.

and although it doesn’t need to be distilled to the point where the alcohol exceeds the grape content, some parishes use fortified wines - of the style of sherry and port -

!!!

More alcohol than grape would be brandy, not sherry or port!

hawk

 

[andrewstx]

It very definitely does matter.

Ribena isn’t ‘fruit of the vine’. It’s not wine. It isn’t the sacrament that was instituted by Jesus at the Last Supper.

If Jesus has wanted us to use a cordial for the purposes of consecration into the Precious Blood, he would have squeezed some fruit juice into some water first. But he didn’t. He used wine and unleavened bread, being as they are symbolic elements for the Jews regarding Passover and He Himself became the Sacrificial Lamb. That’s why we also call Jesus “The Lamb of God”.

So Ribena would never and could never substitute for wine.

Ribena does not even contain grapes, it is black currant juice.

 

[ConstantineTG]

He used wine and unleavened bread

There is no conclusive evidence that the meal was the passover meal, that Jesus used unleavened bread. Leaven bread has been used in the Church since the beginning and the Roman Church has used leavened bread in its early days.

 

[Linda_Marie]

From most posts I understand now that it was not “50-50” ratio!

But I saw the Pastor pouring from one small red bottle (which I believe was a wine) and another small white bottle (which I believe was a water) into a third golden cup and mixing them with his hand, he held the two bottles exactly the same amount of time, so I assume that was 50-50 ratio!

However, still I cannot find a satisfactory answer on why few drops of red wine into a cup of grape juice would not have the same effect!, isn’t the red wine suppose to reflect Jesus blood, so I believe few holy drops should turn a sea of juice into wine. :heaven:

You receive the full and entire Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ no matter which species of the Eucharist you consume. If you have a problem with alcohol, do not receive from the chalice.

The water and wine are mixed prior to being consecrated. They are just ordinary water and wine. There is nothing holy about either. Only after the words of consecration are spoken do they become the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It does not have to be red wine, just grape wine. Our parish uses white.

Maybe this article can explain it better.
Why Grape Wine?