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commenter
Guest
And a “waking up” of some Protestants/Anglicans after, say, the the 1960s - 70s.
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Lutherans would say amen to this, though I’m not aware of any church body that actually confesses consubstantiation. The great Lutheran theologians: Charles Porterfield Krauth, rightly called consubstantiation a "monstrous doctrine ", and John Gerhard called it a “figment”.
So, I agree on that I hope the great theologians convince Lutherans who believe the false teaching of consubstantiation that they are wrong.
Jon
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Topper17
Guest
Hi Dirk,
If we are to be kind to our separated brethren, then we must portray the teachings of the Church as they are.
As for their Theologians being ‘trained’, I think it is extremely significant that their best minds, those with the best educations, and with, demonstrably, more ‘chips on the table’, are converting to either Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy at a rate which far exceeds that of Lutheran laypeople. Clearly, they ‘know something’ that lay Lutherans, in general, do not.
In fact, in the last few years, many of the best Lutheran Theologians have converted.
Richard John Neuhaus (1990)
Robert Walkin (1994)
Paul Quist (2005)
Richard Ballard (2006)
Paul Abe (2006),
Thomas McMichael
Mickey Mattox
David Fagerberg
Bruce Marshall
Reinhard Hutter
Philip Max Johnson
Of course this is only a partial list.
In addition, Dr. Michael Root converted to Roman Catholicism in 2010. This following his participation in “From Conflict to Communion” as a 2009 Lutheran participant. If I remember correctly, the following year, he took part in the Catholic/Lutheran dialogue, but on the Catholic side of the table.
Steve Ray, the noted Catholic Apologist has written about this in his 2012 Article “Landslide of Lutherans into the Catholic Church”
catholic-convert.com/blog/2012/06/12/landslide-of-lutherans-into-the-catholic-church/
It seems to me to be logical that Lutheran Scholars would have a better understanding of actual Catholic teaching than would Lutheran laypeople. As such, it is extremely significant that they convert at a much higher rate than do Lutheran laypeople. It seems that the greater the knowledge of the actual teachings of the Catholic Church, the greater the possibility of conversion. It is that simple. If there is another explanation I would be glad to hear it.
With that in mind, it would seem important that Protestants learn what the Church actually teaches, rather than what they might have learned that the Church teaches, and which might not be true.
We should all pray that all Protestants learn more about what the Catholic Church actually teaches, and that that their hearts are opened by the Holy Spirit to His Truth.
God Bless You Dirk, Topper
100% Agreed! Personally, I believe that we are not doing anyone any favors if we portray the Catholic Faith as being ‘watered down’ so as to make it more attractive to those whose teachings, through heresy and schism, have already become watered down.
If we are to be kind to our separated brethren, then we must portray the teachings of the Church as they are.
As for their Theologians being ‘trained’, I think it is extremely significant that their best minds, those with the best educations, and with, demonstrably, more ‘chips on the table’, are converting to either Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy at a rate which far exceeds that of Lutheran laypeople. Clearly, they ‘know something’ that lay Lutherans, in general, do not.
In fact, in the last few years, many of the best Lutheran Theologians have converted.
Richard John Neuhaus (1990)
Robert Walkin (1994)
Paul Quist (2005)
Richard Ballard (2006)
Paul Abe (2006),
Thomas McMichael
Mickey Mattox
David Fagerberg
Bruce Marshall
Reinhard Hutter
Philip Max Johnson
Of course this is only a partial list.
In addition, Dr. Michael Root converted to Roman Catholicism in 2010. This following his participation in “From Conflict to Communion” as a 2009 Lutheran participant. If I remember correctly, the following year, he took part in the Catholic/Lutheran dialogue, but on the Catholic side of the table.
Steve Ray, the noted Catholic Apologist has written about this in his 2012 Article “Landslide of Lutherans into the Catholic Church”
catholic-convert.com/blog/2012/06/12/landslide-of-lutherans-into-the-catholic-church/
It seems to me to be logical that Lutheran Scholars would have a better understanding of actual Catholic teaching than would Lutheran laypeople. As such, it is extremely significant that they convert at a much higher rate than do Lutheran laypeople. It seems that the greater the knowledge of the actual teachings of the Catholic Church, the greater the possibility of conversion. It is that simple. If there is another explanation I would be glad to hear it.
With that in mind, it would seem important that Protestants learn what the Church actually teaches, rather than what they might have learned that the Church teaches, and which might not be true.
We should all pray that all Protestants learn more about what the Catholic Church actually teaches, and that that their hearts are opened by the Holy Spirit to His Truth.
God Bless You Dirk, Topper
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thephilosopher6
Guest
Didn’t Pope Francis suggest Lutherans can take communion? It is my understanding the Church sees the Lutheran view of communion incompatible with Church teaching. Though, to me it does seem that Lutherans actually have a quite similar view of the Eucharist as our Eastern Christian brothers and sisters do. So, perhaps Pope Francis realizes this and Lutherans are now allowed to take communion?
No. I don’t think that was Pope Francis’ intention.
Its not our view that determines whether we are welcome at each other’s altars. It is our current division generally. That needs to be reconciled first.
Jon
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Peter_J
Guest
Actually he said “I will not ever dare to give permission to do this because it is not my competence” and to pray about it – although I can understand how you might have thought otherwise, considering some of the criticisms I’ve been hearing from traditionalists.
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Topper17
Guest
Hi Mary,
Thanks for your response.
That is not to say though that the actions of misguided men cannot damage the Church. Of course they can and that is what we have to struggle against. However, those ‘progressive’ ideas simply cannot become Catholic teaching - EVER! While those things steadily become a greater part of Protestant doctrine, the Church is literally unable to incorporate them into our official teachings.
God Bless You Mary, Topper
Thanks for your response.
Exactly! There is no question about that. The gates of hell will NEVER prevail against the Church. It’s dogmatic teachings CANNOT be changed. This is not true of the Protestant communions.
That is not to say though that the actions of misguided men cannot damage the Church. Of course they can and that is what we have to struggle against. However, those ‘progressive’ ideas simply cannot become Catholic teaching - EVER! While those things steadily become a greater part of Protestant doctrine, the Church is literally unable to incorporate them into our official teachings.
God Bless You Mary, Topper
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guanophore
Guest
Kinda like Jesus made it palatable to the Pharisees?
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Brendan_64
Guest
Just so long as we are also clear that when we talk about unity we mean unity under Peter. We can talk and listen, but we need to be honest about our aim. We should not be in the business of compromising in order to find a ‘common ground’, that road is the road of false ecumenism that leads to indifferentism.
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Peter_J
Guest
This may sound odd, considering you and I have hardly ever even dialogued, but I would like to second the above statement. Any sort of bait-and-switch, from any side, is quite counterproductive or possibly even destructive.
Plus, if I might steal the words of a fictional patriarch, I’m pretty sure that singing together about sunshine and lollipops isn’t going to accomplish very much.
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steido01
Guest
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Peter_J
Guest
Was it Archie Bunker?
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