500 Years of Protestantism: 38 Things Martin Luther Wrote

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We just don’t accept the premises of the arguments you’re making here.
All I can say, you’re really not arguing with me. I’m in His Church, and all I’m doing is passing on the information. You’re the protestant to His Church. You know who your founder is, and when he founded your organization. And you know 1500 + years after the fact, It wasn’t Jesus or an apostle that founded your religion. So ultimately when the day comes, and it comes for all of us, I’m not the one you need to convince that you don’t agree with the premise.

I would suggest however, knowing historical truth and rejecting it because you’ve taken another side, is not the same as one who doesn’t know that truth in the first place, and remains unaware.
 
=steve b;11241942]The writers of the NT were in the Church they wrote to and for. That’s the Catholic Church. Headquartered in Rome, the chair of Peter. And the CC assembled the books she deemed scripture and canonized them in 382 at the council of Rome. That canon was likewise validated in the councils of Hippo, Carthage, Trent.
Well, you’re going to have to explain that to Orthodoxy as they have canons bigger than Rome’s. The Church that did the Council of Rome was an undivided Church, not just one patriarch on his own. The councils of Hippo and Carthage were local, not ecumenical councils. It is at Trent where for the Latin Catholic Church the canon was dogmatized. Until then, Catholics were all free to have opinions and disputes about the books. Jerome, Erasmus, Cajetan, and yes, Luther. And if you criticize one for doing so prior to Trent, you must do so to them all.
Are you being coy?😉
No. I don’t know which ten you are talking about.
When books are removed from canonical status and made apocryphal, that’s taking books away from scripture. That happened to 7 OT books. You know them already
No, it didn’t. Do you consider them out of the canon? If not, why would you make this statement. And the Lutheran confessions also do not. The confessions do not make a doctrinal statement about the books, and on occasion, reference the DC’s.
The NT books involved were James, Hebrews and Revelation. There’s various stories on why Luther put them back. But he still sneered at them.
Sneered at them is your polemic. He translated them!!! Why would he do that if he sneered at them? Why not just ignore them? He was under no authority from Rome to do so. He never took them out to put them back, and he preached from all of them until his death. He did have concerns about them, and Jude as well, but then, the concerns he had mirror the concerns regarding them dating back to Eusebius!!
How many canonical books were in his OT?
It was Luther’s opinion that the DC’s did not rise to the same level as the other books, an opinion held by many, from Jerome until Luther contemporary Cardinal Cajetan. Catholics were allowed to have these opinions until Trent. But, he included them. He and his friends went through the effort to translate and include them. He did not sneer at them, but had great respect for them - good and useful to read.
Lutherans to this day use them liturgically, in our hymnody, and there is a growing use of them in Bible study and the like.
Didn’t he do that in his original opening commentary to the NT in his 1522 version?
No. He made a comparative statement.
“In a word St. John’s Gospel and his first epistle, St. Paul’s epistles, especially Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, and St. Peter’s first epistle are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and salvatory for you to know, even if you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James’ epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it. *
and,
“Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients,
I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle; ** *

An odd sounding sneer, IMO. Luther is Gospel “centric”. For him, books that speak to Christ are far more important than the others, as he says above. It is his opinion, and he was and is allowed to have it.
opinion is one thing changing the status of a book from canonical to aprocryphal is altogether different. And he did manipulate those 3 NT books mentioned
Well, unless the CC now considers them apocryphal, I don’t see how you can claim he changed their status. And I have no idea what you mean by “manipulate 3 NT books”.

Jon
 
Decree of nullity.

Henry didn’t have Tyndale executed.

Tyndale was not beheaded.

GKC
“Off with his head” is a generic expression of execution that I believe became famous from Alice in Wonderland.

Henry wanted Tyndale dead as he wanted all outspoken people who were against him. Tyndales mistake that drew the attention of the king was a book that Tyndale wrote scathing the king and his actions. Tyndale was betrayed by an Englishman who had semi befriended him. Tyndale thought he would be able to return home to England since Henry had broke away from the Catholic Church. Henry did not execute Tyndale directly, but he had perfectly good means of facilitating it.
 
My postulate is that you’ve most likely have never talked with the Lutheran pastor for any appreciable length of time.
My postulate is that there is a phrase to describe this common style of apologetic you submit.🙂
 
My postulate is that there is a phrase to describe this common style of apologetic you submit.🙂
My postulate is that if we continue down this oblique methodology of argument, I shall be rightly confounded in the noggin.
🙂
 
Originally Posted by** benjohnson **
My postulate is that you’ve most likely have never talked with the Lutheran pastor for any appreciable length of time.
Originally Posted by** Darryl B **
My postulate is that there is a phrase to describe this common style of apologetic you submit.
My postulate is that if we continue down this oblique methodology of argument, I shall be rightly confounded in the noggin.
🙂
Huh? :hypno:
 
St. Paul criticizes Peter.
And with good reason. But not with the result that you believe.

On Peter, Paul and Hypocrisy

In their effort to deny the primacy of Peter and the doctrine of papal infallibility, many non-Catholics point to Paul’s rebuke of Peter over the issue of eating with Gentiles as recorded in the Paul’s Letter to the Galatians.

Galatians 2:11-14
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. 14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

In this passage, we see that Paul opposed Peter for not practicing what he preached. Although Peter may have been wrong to draw back from eating with the Gentile believers, we must note that is apparently James, and not Peter, who was the leader of the “circumcision group” in Jerusalem. Thus, those who assert that it was James, and not Peter, who was the real leader of the Church must answer for this error. However, Peter’s actions do not constitute formal teaching, and the doctrine of infallibility does not apply to Peter’s private opinions or behavior. Therefore, this passage does nothing to disprove either Peter’s primacy or the doctrine of papal infallibility. Peter, like his successors, was not above reproach nor impeccable.

However, it must also be noted that Paul was not above taking prudent measures out of fear of those who held to the tradition of circumcision, either. One such measure is found in the following passage:

Acts 16:1-3
1He came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was a Jewess and a believer, but whose father was a Greek. 2The brothers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

Paul wrote that “circumcision means nothing” (1 Corinthians 7:19, Galatians 6:15). Moreover, in the same letter in which Paul accused Peter of hypocrisy and boasted of having opposed Peter to his face, he writes the following:

Galatians 5:2-3
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

Imagine how Timothy must have felt when he first heard these words. He had let himself be circumcised by the very man who condemned the practice. Was Christ of no value to Timothy at all as a result of being circumcised?

This was not the only time that Paul had acted out of fear of the Jews. Later in the book of Acts, we find the following:

Acts 21:17-26
17When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. 18The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” 26The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.

Clearly, the brothers in Jerusalem were concerned that some harm might come to Paul from those who knew that Paul taught against circumcision. Paul agreed to purify himself according to Jewish customs and to pay the expenses of those who were purified along with him rather than openly admit that circumcision was of no value. Was this a wise course of action? Assuredly as subsequent events indicate.

However, it cannot be denied that Paul was preaching one thing (at least in private to Gentile Christians) while practicing another—the very thing he accused Peter of doing.

In his subsequent letters (1Cor 8: 9-13, Romans 14:13), Paul backtracks and admits that one might avoid controversial behavior for the sake of the “weaker brethren.” Thus, he vindicates Peter’s actions in retrospect.

In short, Peter and Paul both had valid points. Paul was right in principle whereas Peter was right pastorally.
 
“Off with his head” is a generic expression of execution that I believe became famous from Alice in Wonderland.

Henry wanted Tyndale dead as he wanted all outspoken people who were against him. Tyndales mistake that drew the attention of the king was a book that Tyndale wrote scathing the king and his actions. Tyndale was betrayed by an Englishman who had semi befriended him. Tyndale thought he would be able to return home to England since Henry had broke away from the Catholic Church. Henry did not execute Tyndale directly, but he had perfectly good means of facilitating it.
I suspected that was what you meant by “off with his head.”

Henry was delighted that Tyndale was executed, through Charles V, though Thomas Cromwell did attempt to intervene for him. He considered Tyndale a Lutheran heretic, though he was heavily influenced by Tyndale’s THE OBEDIENCE OF A CHRISTIAN MAN, in his view of the role of the throne in relation to the Church within a realm. And Henry had certainly executed Bliney and Firth, for such heresy.

Point: Henry likely would have executed Tyndale, both for his PRACTICE OF PRELATES and his Lutheranism, for heresy and sedition. But he didn’t. That lay at Charles’ feet.

GKC
 
My postulate is that if we continue down this oblique methodology of argument, I shall be rightly confounded in the noggin.
🙂
Then my postulate is that you’ve most likely have never talked with a Catholic priest for any appreciable length of time.
 
Well, you’re going to have to explain that to tho Orthodoxy that has canons bigger than Rome’s.
I’ve asked this question many times on these forums. I’ve yet to get an answer, Maybe you can help.

Q: When is the 1st time we see “Orthodox Church” in writing? Date + reference
J:
The Church that did the Council of Rome was an undivided Church, not just one patriarch on his own.
For some perspective (emphasis mine) Re: patriarchal system & 1st among equals
  1. In Christian literature, the expression begins to be used in the East when, from the fifth century, the idea of the Pentarchy gained ground, according to which there are five Patriarchs at the head of the Church, with the Church of Rome having the first place among these patriarchal sister Churches. In this connection, however, it needs to be noted that no Roman Pontiff ever recognized this equalization of the sees or accepted that only a primacy of honour be accorded to the See of Rome.It should be noted too that this patriarchal structure typical of the East never developed in the West.
  2. The expression appears again in two letters of the Metropolitan Nicetas of Nicodemia (in the year 1136) and the Patriarch John X Camaterus (in office from 1198 to 1206), in which they protested that Rome, by presenting herself as mother and teacher, would annul their authority.In their view, Rome is only the first among sisters of equal dignity.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000630_chiese-sorelle_en.html
J:
The councils of Hippo and Carthage were local, not ecumenical councils.
I mentioned them only to show continuity.
J:
It is at Trent where for the Latin Catholic Church the canon was dogmatized. Until then, Catholics were all free to have opinions and disputes about the books.
Trent changed nothing. Here’s a couple of short responses

catholic.com/quickquestions/why-did-the-council-of-trent-accept-some-apocryphal-books-of-the-bible-but-not-others

catholic.com/quickquestions/did-the-church-add-the-deuterocanonical-books-to-the-bible-at-the-council-of-trent
J:
No. I don’t know which ten you are talking about.
7 Deuterocanonical books he said were apocryphal + James, Hebrews Revelation = 10

The 3 NT books were reinstated, depending on the source, there’s various answers for why that is.
J:
It was Luther’s opinion that the DC’s did not rise to the same level as the other books,
He turned DC’s into apocryphal status.
J:
No. He made a comparative statement.
“In a word St. John’s Gospel and his first epistle, St. Paul’s epistles, especially Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, and St. Peter’s first epistle are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and salvatory for you to know, even if you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James’ epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it.
and,
“Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients,I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle;

An odd sounding sneer, IMO.
It’s just odd anyway.
J:
Luther is Gospel “centric”. For him, books that speak to Christ are far more important than the others, as he says above. It is his opinion, and he was and is allowed to have it.
He started his own religion which is condemned in scripture and tradition. Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21, Division is not being a gospel centric guy. The HS inspired Paul to write those warnings, and the HS received that from Jesus John 16:12-15

So, it’s Jesus telling Luther, and anyone else who divides from Our Lord’s Church how He will judge those who divide and / or remain divided from His Church. btw, All Protestants regardless of stripe are outside the Catholic Church.
 
Then my postulate is that you’ve most likely have never talked with a Catholic priest for any appreciable length of time.
I tried once… but the holy water kept on getting in my eyes.

I do remember he told me “EXORCIZO te, immundíssime spíritus, omnis incúrsio adversárii, omne phantasma, omnis légio, in nómine Dómini nostri Jesu Christi” before dousing me.
 
The 3 NT books were reinstated, depending on the source, there’s various answers for why that is.
I’ll make you a wager: If you can show me an intact Lutheran bible with those books missing I’ll buy you a Lutheran donut. Lutheran donuts are better than regular donuts - they’re holy.
 
I’ve asked this question many times on these forums. I’ve yet to get an answer, Maybe you can help.

Q: When is the 1st time we see “Orthodox Church” in writing? Date + reference
Now you’ve got me curious how many times you’ve posted ^^ this. I’ve seen it quite a few times but I don’t really keep track (plus I would guess that there are a bunch of times that I didn’t see).
 
Can you show me where the other See’s deferred to Rome?
.

  1. *]Corinth Greece requested Clement of Rome to settle sedition among their bishops during apostolic times.
    *]Ignatius of Antioch while on his way to be martyred in Rome identifies the Church of Rome, as holding the presidency, and asked for the Bishop of Rome to watch over his see during transition to a new bishop
    *]Irenaeus of Smyrna, and bishop of Lyons France, in his work “Against heresies” instructed all to agree with Rome on account of it’s pre-eminent authority
    *]Cyprian of Carthage identifies the bishop of Rome as the source of priestly unity.
    *]etc etc
    h:
    The Keys were passed onto all the Apostles, not just Peter. In fact St. Paul criticizes Peter
    Re: keys, Please quote the passage from scripture where all the apostles receive them

    Re: Paul criticizing Peter, [Gal 2] this has been answered many times
    forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6868438&postcount=245
 
Re: keys, Please quote the passage from scripture where all the apostles receive them
Keep in mind, I don’t like to proof text, but here it is:

Matthew 18:18

“Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[a] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be* loosed in heaven."**

Remember, in Mathew 18, Jesus is talking to the disciples - “At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked”

There’s other scripture too that indicated Peter’s place among the apostles:

1 Pet. 5:1-2, “Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, **as your fellow elder *and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;”
 
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