500 Years of Protestantism: 38 Things Martin Luther Wrote

[JonNC]

Yes we DO increasingly follow Luther and his larger-than-Trent-Catholic bible.

If they’re not scripture for us Lutherans, why do they show up in our Liturgy,** Hymns (remember we Lutherans take our Hymns deadly seriously),** and in our sermons and importantly in our lectionary:

cyberbrethren.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Daily-Lectionary.pdf

To be fair, we do have another lectionary that doesn’t include them for those churches that have some sort of wonky issue, but frankly of all the ‘protestants’ you’re griping about, we should be last on the list.

Yep. Hymns in the Lutheran tradition reflect doctrine. :yup:

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

Aren’t these the 7 OT books? “The Apocrypha: The Lutheran Edition with Notes”

iow, those books that are NOT scripture in a Lutheran bible.

Question: when you see the word “Apocrypha” do you translate it as “not scripture”?

 

[Peter_J]

More importantly why are Lutherans excited about the Pope extending his hand to them in the first place?

Some are, some aren’t, I would say. (I doubt very many in the WELS are excited about the Pope extending his hand to them.)

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Some are, some aren’t, I would say. (I doubt very many in the WELS are excited about the Pope extending his hand to them.)

I think many Lutheran layman are either indifferent or against efforts to reunite with Rome. In Europe where Lutherans and Catholics have had a rocky relationship, some Lutherans welcome closer ties with Roman Catholics since they don’t really see any difference. On the other hand, when the ELCA began full communion with Episcopalians, I was surprised by the negative reaction of some Lutherans.

So called “confessional Lutherans” [btw all Lutherans are confessional but not literalistic] resist ecumenism since they can not even get along with other Lutherans.

 

[Peter_J]

So called “confessional Lutherans” [btw all Lutherans are confessional but not literalistic] resist ecumenism since they can not even get along with other Lutherans.

That’s exactly why I have a “Lutherans are bad” bumper sticker on my car. (Okay, I’m kidding about that, but I imagine there’s such a bumper sticker somewhere.)

 

[pocohombre]

I think many Lutheran layman are either indifferent or against efforts to reunite with Rome. In Europe where Lutherans and Catholics have had a rocky relationship, some Lutherans welcome closer ties with Roman Catholics since they don’t really see any difference. On the other hand, when the ELCA began full communion with Episcopalians, I was surprised by the negative reaction of some Lutherans.

So called “confessional Lutherans” [btw all Lutherans are confessional but not literalistic] resist ecumenism since they can not even get along with other Lutherans.

Why do Lutherans have to go to Rome? I think they should go back to Jerusalem or Constantinople, or better yet, why don’t we go back to the five Patriarchs type of system ?

 

[Per_Crucem]

I think many Lutheran layman are either indifferent or against efforts to reunite with Rome.

We’re against it when it means accepting doctrines that we believe go against the gospel.

In Europe where Lutherans and Catholics have had a rocky relationship, some Lutherans welcome closer ties with Roman Catholics since they don’t really see any difference. On the other hand, when the ELCA began full communion with Episcopalians, I was surprised by the negative reaction of some Lutherans.

Hmm…yes, why would we be negative toward fellowship with church hierarchies that deny central biblical truths?

So called “confessional Lutherans” [btw all Lutherans are confessional but not literalistic] resist ecumenism since they can not even get along with other Lutherans.

I get along fine with other Lutherans that believe what Scripture teaches.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Why do Lutherans have to go to Rome? I think they should go back to Jerusalem or Constantinople, or better yet, why don’t we go back to the five Patriarchs type of system ?

Good question that I can not answer other than offer up an opinion. It seems that Lutherans are angry cousins of the Roman Catholic Church. Other than the ELCA, the Lutheran communion seems totally catholic-centric, and not as enthusiastic in dialogue with Calvinists. It was forced on both Lutheran and Reform in the 1800’s yet that did not lead to union. It is natural for Lutherans to enter into full communion with Anglicans since we share the full apostolic faith. Lutheran theologians and bishops seem very interested in pursuing reunion with the Pope. I wonder how Francis is going to greet the ELCA presiding bishop huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/14/elizabeth-eaton-first-female-bishop_n_3757665.html

Lutherans can no longer argue with the contemporary Catholic Church and view Francis as much our pope as Roman Catholics. When it finally comes down to the most important absolute of the Catholic faith that Christ comes to us fully in the holy Sacrament, we are brothers.

 

[Contarini]

Why do Lutherans have to go to Rome? I think they should go back to Jerusalem or Constantinople, or better yet, why don’t we go back to the five Patriarchs type of system ?

Why return to a political arrangement of the late Roman Empire?

I think you know why Catholics think Rome is important. It has to do with the promises of Christ to Peter.

The primacy of Constantinople, like the five-patriarchs system, is rooted in late Roman politics and not in any command of the Lord.

There is no “Church of Jerusalem” to return to. All the Patriarchs of Jerusalem (there are what, three or four of them?) acknowledge the primacy of some other bishop, whether Rome or Constantinople or Etchmiadzin or whatever.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

(remember we Lutherans take our Hymns deadly seriously),

As you should. They are among the greatest treasures of the Church.

If the Catholics ever get ecumenical enough to declare Protestant Doctors of the Church, Paul Gerhardt should be on the list–as should Charles Wesley!

We sang “Commit Thou All that Grieves Thee” a couple of weeks ago at my church

Even better, I got to play it (yes, I’m the organist, though not a very skilled one).

Edwin

 

[Per_Crucem]

As you should. They are among the greatest treasures of the Church.

If the Catholics ever get ecumenical enough to declare Protestant Doctors of the Church, Paul Gerhardt should be on the list–as should Charles Wesley!

We sang “Commit Thou All that Grieves Thee” a couple of weeks ago at my church

Even better, I got to play it (yes, I’m the organist, though not a very skilled one).

Edwin

Amen. Charles Wesley was a genius.

 

[steve_b]

Question: when you see the word “Apocrypha” do you translate it as "not scripture

"?

Luther answers your question in his own words

Apocrypha, that are books which are not considered equal to the Holy Scriptures, but are useful and good to read.

So the answer is Yes

Catholic position with support references

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/apologetics/bible/the-apocrypha/

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0120.html

http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/deuteros.htm

While no ONE speaks for Protestants, here are various Protestant responses.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/canon.cfm#apocrypha

http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/252/should-a-protestant-read-the-apocryphal-books-of-the-bible

Note the degree of disinformation

 

[Darryl_B]

Some are, some aren’t, I would say. (I doubt very many in the WELS are excited about the Pope extending his hand to them.)

I did get the impression that there was a broad spectrum of Lutheran response to this. I also wonder, now that we have (Blessed) Pope Francis who probably wont be as intent to resolve the situation in Germany as (Blessed) Pope Benedict XVI was. Germany and Argentina, different backgrounds. I am wondering if there is a window of opportunity that has been lost for Lutherans. But then I don’t fully understand yet whether anyone is truly interested in reconciliation. Or whether the foot-stomping is greater.

 

[JonNC]

I think many Lutheran layman are either indifferent or against efforts to reunite with Rome. In Europe where Lutherans and Catholics have had a rocky relationship, some Lutherans welcome closer ties with Roman Catholics since they don’t really see any difference. On the other hand, when the ELCA began full communion with Episcopalians, I was surprised by the negative reaction of some Lutherans.

So called “confessional Lutherans” [btw all Lutherans are confessional but not literalistic] resist ecumenism since they can not even get along with other Lutherans.

This is just factually incorrect. The LCMS has been involved, admittedly somewhat reluctantly at times, in all but one of the Lutheran Catholic dialogue sessions here in the US. We are signators of the recent “Hope For Eternal Life” document.
The Lutheran Church-Canada recently opened new dialogue with the Canadian Catholic Bishops.

Further, you know quite well the difference between Confessional Lutherans and other Lutheran. Simply ask yourself the question: Do you believe the confessions because they “are” a right reflection of scripture, or do you believe the confessions “in so far as” they reflect the truth of scripture. The former is confessional, the latter is not.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

That’s exactly why I have a “Lutherans are bad” bumper sticker on my car. (Okay, I’m kidding about that, but I imagine there’s such a bumper sticker somewhere.)

I saw those at a Christian bookstore, right next to the Catholic ones.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Luther answers your question in his own words

Apocrypha, that are books which are not considered equal to the Holy Scriptures, but are useful and good to read.

So the answer is Yes

Catholic position with support references

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/apologetics/bible/the-apocrypha/

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0120.html

http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/deuteros.htm

While no ONE speaks for Protestants, here are various Protestant responses.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/canon.cfm#apocrypha

http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/252/should-a-protestant-read-the-apocryphal-books-of-the-bible

Note the degree of disinformation

That I can tell, neither of the sites are Lutheran, so they are irrelevant when discussing the Lutheran view of scripture.

pitchengine.com/concordiapublishinghouse/the-apocryphaa-lost-treasure-recovered

cyberbrethren.com/2012/10/04/what-exactly-is-the-apocrypha/
Jon

 

[Peter_J]

Luther answers your question in his own words

Apocrypha, that are books which are not considered equal to the Holy Scriptures, but are useful and good to read.

Thank you for clarifying your intent. (What your previous post said was

Aren’t these the 7 OT books? “The Apocrypha: The Lutheran Edition with Notes”

iow, those books that are NOT scripture in a Lutheran bible.

i.e. you said “Lutheran” not “Luther”.)

Btw, do you realize your post has about 2 dozen font and color scripts in it?

 

[Peter_J]

Lutherans can no longer argue with the contemporary Catholic Church and view Francis as much our pope as Roman Catholics. When it finally comes down to the most important absolute of the Catholic faith that Christ comes to us fully in the holy Sacrament, we are brothers.

For the record, EC, I’ve heard this same tune many times before – although usually with different lyrics: my experience has mostly been of Catholics singing this tune to Orthodox. What’s interesting though is that the Orthodox (by and large, of course, there are exceptions) haven’t gone for it.

 

[steido01]

Thank you for clarifying your intent. (What your previous post said was i.e. you said “Lutheran” not “Luther”.)

Btw, do you realize your post has about 2 dozen font and color scripts in it?

Precisely. This thread has seen a conflation of Luther’s personal scholarly opinions (the man) with Lutheranism (the Confessions) - a conflation that stands only on the unfortunate general practice of American Lutherans as the “proof” (a practice which was heavily influenced by the circumstances in the New World, as previously discussed). Furthermore, the Lutheran sources listed only confirm the simple point what we Lutherans have been trying to make. Generic protestant links have no use here, as Lutherans are not generic protestants.

One last time: The Lutheran Confessions do not define a canon. It is that simple. Lutherans are free to consider the disputed books Scripture, or not.

 

[MaryT777]

I saw those at a Christian bookstore, right next to the Catholic ones.

Jon

…trying to imagine Jon with a Catholics are bad bumper sticker on his car LOL!~
Not!
Mary.