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EvangelCatholic
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Of course, Jon, you are a great dogmatists and correct. My point is that the evolution of Christ’s presence to the world is what is important. Francis was speaking to all Christians this week.
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But it isn’t a matter of dogmatics or even legalism. While I don’t know this to be true about you, there are some who think that doctrine simply gets in the way of unity, and that people should be permitted to believe what they want (within reason). That kind of unity, however, isn’t a true unity.
I have no don’t that Pope Francis speaks to all Christians, and sometimes he speaks* for * all Christians. But we have our doctrinal differences, and they become apparent when, for example, German Lutherans and Catholics call for Eucharistic hospitality, particular for mixed communion (Lutheran/Catholic) married couples. The Vatican continues to stand firm on their doctrine, as does SELK, from what I understand. This isn’t wrong. This is the right thing to do.
Think of it this way; we Lutherans see the law as having 3 uses - curb, mirror, guide. In this sense, the “law” (close/closed communion) acts as a mirror. It shows us all the sin of our mutual separation, which should then encourage us to continue to work for and pray for true unity. If we say we want unity without dealing with our differences, we get a false unity that won’t last.
Jon
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
The whole world is listening to Pope Francis, a saint in our midst.
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Peter_J
Guest
I think I would be sufficiently happy if we just returned to Confirmation (Chrismation) before First Communion. (In my case, I wasn’t confirmed until 10 grade!)
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steve_b
Guest
That link had an internal link. It gave more specifics
drvc.org/the-chancery/special-circumstances-for-the-admission-of-other-christians-to-communion-at-catholic-celebrations-of-the-eucharist-in-the-diocese-of-rockville-centre.html
From that internal link
"Episcopal and Protestant Christians may receive the sacraments of Eucharist, Reconciliation and Anointing of the Sick from a Catholic minister when in danger of death, or in situations of “grave necessity” or “grave and pressing need,” as interpreted and explained in section III above. In such cases the** five conditions of canon 844.4 must be met**:
*]The person requesting the sacrament must be validly baptized. Baptism is valid when water is poured or the person is immersed and the trinitarian formula is used. For example, valid baptism is presumed for Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians and Methodists. (21)
*]The person must manifest the faith which the Catholic Church professes in the sacrament. As a minimum for Eucharistic sharing, the person must believe that in receiving the Eucharist we receive the body and blood of Christ. In some communions this is standard dogma; for example, Episcopalians and Lutherans can be presumed to believe in the real presence. For members of other communions there may be need for some further discussion concerning their belief in the Eucharist.
*]The person must ask for the sacrament freely. The request must have been initiated by the person seeking Eucharistic communion.
*]The person must be unable to have recourse for the sacrament to a minister of his or her own community. This condition is met when gaining access to one’s own minister poses a reasonable physical, moral or psychological difficulty, or causes serious inconvenience for the minister or recipient.
*]The person must be properly disposed to receive the sacrament. As noted above “proper disposition” is the same as required for Catholics, i.e., not conscious of serious sin (see canon 916). “Being properly disposed means being in a good relationship with God, or if not, taking whatever steps are necessary to return to a good relationship with God.” (22)
Re: #5
Just thinking outloud, that’s not easy to do on the spur of the moment. What Protestant can meet the disposition and condition that a Catholic is required to be in, while living as a Protestant and intending to remain Protestant? Put another way, If a Protestant did meet the disposition and conditions of a Catholic, they would be Catholic…true? A Protestant intending to remain Protestant, shows they don’t meet the disposition and condition of a Catholic. This is why the Church puts the restrictions she does on those outside the Church receiving the Eucharist in the CC. By Protestants NOT being in union with the CC, they violate Our Lord’s Will and prayer John 17:20-23 Protestants receiving the Eucharist in the CC as bishops say, would presuppose a unity that doesn’t exist. That’s why only in extraordianary conditions such as close to death, are the sacraments of penance and Eucharist available to them providing all those 5 conditions are met.
From JPII
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_20030417_ecclesia_eucharistia_en.html note sections 43-46
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GKC
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I can think of folk who you would call protestant who could meet those listed criteria.
GKC
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Peter_J
Guest
I would say that #5 was already in plain English, as it appeared on that webpage. But having said that, if you do decide to email them your suggestion, then please let me know their response – I’d be interested to see whether or not they post it (perhaps as a footnote?)
:smile politely:
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batman1973
Guest
Since this a thread on Martin Luther, I will let Father Luther speak:
The church was divided long before Father Luther was called of God to reform her. For that, I am ever grateful that Martin Luther listened to the Voice of Jesus and made His Bride pure, the way He intended her to be.
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Peter_J
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Darryl_B
Guest
I’m sorry exactly where is Missouri? And how has that become the new German Lutheran Church?
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Peter_J
Guest
That wasn’t uncommon for Roman Catholics a few generations ago. Then the 20th century saw the return to more traditional ages for First Communion … but also the reversal of the order of receiving the sacraments of Confirmation and First Communion.
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GKC
Guest
And you can still find Anglicans for which confirmation, in the 10-12 age range, preceding first communion, is the norm.
GKC
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steido01
Guest
This is the general practice in the LCMS, and it generally serves well in educating the laity about the importance of Holy Communion before they take part. Though it can can have drawbacks, as Jharek noted. Misunderstandings in both practices could be solved through better catechesis.
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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
Just wanted to chime in and tell you folks how proud I am that all who have participated in this discussion and have kept it polite, charitable and adult. This topic could have devolved very quickly, but you guys proved you really can actually debate and disagree agreeably.
One Attaboy/girl.
One Attaboy/girl.
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steido01
Guest
Missouri is the US state where many Confessional Lutherans settled as they escaped persecution from Reformed influences in Germany. The “Old Lutherans” exist all over the world- not just in Missouri (the name is a bit misleading today). In simple terms, they are the Lutherans who have kept a strict adherence to the Lutheran Confessions, and are among the most catholic of any ‘protestant’ group.
Here’s a bit if info: http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=11-03-014-f
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livingwordunity
Guest
Except that Luther is the founder of Lutheranism while the founder of the Catholic Church is Christ. And the Pope is the only one that the Catholic Church says speaks with infallibility. But even then we don’t say that everything the Pope says is infallible. Nevertheless, even if the Pope were not speaking under the conditions of infallibility such as something said off the cuff in an interview he wouldn’t get away with saying what Luther said since the world and all the Church’s enemies scrutinize every word that comes from the Pope while always looking for him to speak in error.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
Interesting article written from the LCMS perspective. But all Lutherans are confessional; we know wherever we happen to be in the world that if a Lutheran church is nearby that the Eucharist will be celebrated and the Word proclaimed. The ELCA may, in-fact, be the most ‘progressive’ since I don’t think that there is any other Lutheran body that has full communion not only with Episcopalians but also Reformed. Our position is that we believe in the Real Presence and adore our Lord at the Atlar. That is our witness to the world as we reach out all people, just like Pope Francis.
Evangelical Catholics are essentially the entire Lutheran Communion in Europe, Africa and increasingly so in north America. That is why we scratch our heads and don’t understand why the Missouri Synod has not joined their Lutheran brothers and embrace Anglicans, episcopacy/ apostolic succession and ultimately reunion with Rome.
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Per_Crucem
Guest
Or that God called the Patriarch of Constantinople to ignore the whole thing, perhapsOf course, we could say that God called Pope Leo X to excommunicate Luther.
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