500 Years of Protestantism: 38 Things Martin Luther Wrote

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pocohombre said:
Whole other topic.
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how is that?
p:
Everybody did not know that the chair of Peter meant he was head bishop, that only he had keys, and was supreme authority of the entire church and that it would be passed down by decision of the church in Rome to others(first few centuries),
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Have you not been paying attention to all the quotes given you from the first few centuries that refute that statement?
p:
that he was infallible when speaking ex cathedra .
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Are you feeling a bit desperate?
p:
and as it is today it was exactly back then. Don’t think so, but respectfully understand your particular church teaching
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As you’ve been shown many times on these forums, this is the Catholic Church shown and identified “in writing” from the first century by scripture and the ECF’s, direct disciples of the apostles. The Church instituted by Christ.

Re: ignorance, plain ole garden variety ignorance, everybody is guilty of

However,

**CCC 1791 **ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

meaning when someone deliberately avoids knowing what he should know, then he is not innocent of his own ignorance anymore, he’s culpable for the wrong he is in, and ignorance is no longer a wildcard he can play in his defense or escape from the consequences of his actions

Said another way, you know the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus established. And Protestants regardless of stripe are all outside the Catholic Church. And you know division from the Catholic Church is evil and condemned in scripture. Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21.
p:
Evidence suggests there was more than one presbyter/bishop in Rome at this time.
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There’s only one successor to Peter at a time.

Besides, you haven’t addressed the fact there were bishops in cities all around Corinth. And they were 100’s and 100’s of miles closer to Corinth than Rome. Why not go to them?
Why did Corinth go to Rome avoiding all the other bishops on the way to Rome? Please answer that question.

And for that matter, why not Corinth go 250 miles to Ephesus to see the apostle John? That saves huge mileage and travel time. In those days that’s a big deal.

Look I understand your problem. When people who don’t hold the One Holy Catholic Apostolic faith of the Church, and see the realities presented to them of this faith, they either get defensive and fight against what they see, or they stop their revolt and embrace the faith.
p:
Even lists that suggest succession can not agree on the order of the first five supposed Popes. You may suggest that Clement did not put his signature,which would have carried a lot of weight in helping keep dear brothers in Corinth on the correct path,because of humility, but it has been suggested that he did not because in fact Rome was governed by a group of presbyters/bishops, hence it states plainly it is from the “church in Rome”.
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I’ll play devil’s advocate here and say soooo WHAT!!!

In Rome they’re throwing Catholics to the lions. They’re lighting the Appian way at night with Catholics they make into torches after soaking them in oil and tieing them to a pole and lighting them.

Corinth is going to ask a volunteer to go to Rome and back, with this important message about needing help to settle sedition among their bishops, and hope their emmesaries don’t get captured. How long do you wait for them to return? A few weeks? What happens if they don’t come back?

If the surrounding bishops from other cities could settle this, Corinth would have used them in a heartbeat. I think It bothers you big time, that Catholics can show papal authority being exercised already in apostolic times, even in the toughest conditions in order to practice the faith…
 
GKC said:
I am not greatly surprised.

Anything else you might agree with him about?

GKC
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Back on post 469 I wrote about 2 issues. 1st among equals and the Pentarchy. Both attempts by the Orthodox to equalize authority in the Church. No pontiff ever accepted it
  1. In Christian literature, the expression begins to be used in the East when, from the fifth century, the idea of the Pentarchy gained ground, according to which there are five Patriarchs at the head of the Church, with the Church of Rome having the first place among these patriarchal sister Churches. In this connection, however, it needs to be noted that no Roman Pontiff ever recognized this equalization of the sees or accepted that only a primacy of honour be accorded to the See of Rome.It should be noted too that this patriarchal structure typical of the East never developed in the West.
  2. The expression appears again in two letters of the Metropolitan Nicetas of Nicodemia (in the year 1136) and the Patriarch John X Camaterus (in office from 1198 to 1206), in which they protested that Rome, by presenting herself as mother and teacher, would annul their authority.In their view, Rome is only the first among sisters of equal dignity.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000630_chiese-sorelle_en.html

Therefore, what Fr Ambrose wrote is accurate, and I agreed because it’s true
 
steve_b said:
Back on post 469 I wrote about 2 issues. 1st among equals and the Pentarchy. Both attempts by the Orthodox to equalize authority in the Church. No pontiff ever accepted it
  1. In Christian literature, the expression begins to be used in the East when, from the fifth century, the idea of the Pentarchy gained ground, according to which there are five Patriarchs at the head of the Church, with the Church of Rome having the first place among these patriarchal sister Churches. In this connection, however, it needs to be noted that no Roman Pontiff ever recognized this equalization of the sees or accepted that only a primacy of honour be accorded to the See of Rome.It should be noted too that this patriarchal structure typical of the East never developed in the West.
  2. The expression appears again in two letters of the Metropolitan Nicetas of Nicodemia (in the year 1136) and the Patriarch John X Camaterus (in office from 1198 to 1206), in which they protested that Rome, by presenting herself as mother and teacher, would annul their authority.In their view, Rome is only the first among sisters of equal dignity.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000630_chiese-sorelle_en.html

Therefore, what Fr Ambrose wrote is accurate, and I agreed because it’s true
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Ok.

Is Fr. Ambrose’s view widespread in Orthodoxy?

GKC
 
benjohnson said:
Gratias mechanica interpres. Facies me respice dolor.
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:tsktsk:

Mechanische Übersetzung für deutsche erforderlich.

And “Facies me respice dolor” in Spanish can be seen as “My face hurts when I breathe” 🙂
 
JonNC said:
Randy,
The patriarchates of the East are as old as the Western see. Correct? It seems they have equal claim to the Church established at Pentecost, while we Lutherans claim it through our Catholic roots in the western Church.

Jon
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According to reasoning like that, practically anyone who’s ever heard of the name of Jesus can claim apostolic authority.
 
pocohombre said:
Everybody did not know that the chair of Peter meant he was head bishop, that only he had keys, and was supreme authority of the entire church and that it would be passed down by decision of the church in Rome to others(first few centuries), that he was infallible when speaking ex cathedra .Everybody knew there was nothing to evolve,mature,develop. and as it is today it was exactly back then. Don’t think so, but respectfully understand your particular church teaching
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Your reasoning is flawed because we could apply that logic to any number of doctrines such as the Trinity, the hypostatic union, and others that the earliest believers would not have understood as fully as we do today and see that it fails.

If understanding of these other doctrines can develop, then you must allow for development of the papacy and apostolic succession, as well.

And since you DO agree that doctrines develop, I think you now have a real basis for considering the claims of the Catholic Church as a potential convert to it.
 
JonNC said:
Funny, because I’m more concerned about how many Lutherans have drifted away from our catholicity. 😊

Jon
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That raises an interesting question, Jon.

You may not lose many members, but where do those who leave Lutheranism go most commonly?
 
lweisenthal said:
The title of this thread is misleading. We haven’t had only 500 years of Protestantism – rather Protestantism has existed for 2,000 years, since the founding of the Roman Catholic Church.
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Could you reference some of the existing writings of these early non-Catholic Christians?
Protestantism has, at its core, the belief that there need be no middlemen between the believer and the Holy Trinity.
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I can imagine John MacArthur or Mike Gendron saying these things, but I am unfamiliar with anything from the Vatican telling me not to waste my time trying to go around the Church’s middlemen to get to God. My own experience is that God uses the priesthood of His Church to get to me. 😉

Could you cite any documents from the Catholic Church which explains how Catholics cannot go directly to God without them?
 
steve_b said:
Ever hear the phrase do nothing without the bishop? Do you really think Corinth just sent a letter to Rome hoping it gets to someone in the Church that will respond to their request?

Athens is 50 miles away. It is mentioned in Acts. Valid bishops, established by Paul. Why in the world does Corinth in S.E. Greece, go to Rome on the West coast of Italy?

St John at this time is in Ephesus

Distance between Corinth and Ephesus is ~250 miles
Distance between Corinth and Rome, is ~700 miles where Clement was

BTW, in order to reduce the miles from Corinth to Rome to ~700 mi, sea travel is required also.

You do the Math.

Why did they go to Rome? It’s the chair of Peter. And Clement can settle sedition between bishops where other bishops don’t have that power between themselves.
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The city of Corinth was a roman colony. That there were close links with the mother city is suggested by the travels of Prisc(illa) and Aquila.
 
Randy_Carson said:
That raises an interesting question, Jon.

You may not lose many members, but where do those who leave Lutheranism go most commonly?
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I could venture a guess that most who leave Lutheranism stop going to church altogether 😦
Having full communion with Episcopalians/ Anglicans would suggest that some Lutherans may see themselves as both. Some noted Lutheran theologians have ‘returned’ to the Roman Catholic church over the decades similar to Anglicans.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
I could venture a guess that most who leave Lutheranism stop going to church altogether 😦
Having full communion with Episcopalians/ Anglicans would suggest that some Lutherans may see themselves as both. Some noted Lutheran theologians have ‘returned’ to the Roman Catholic church over the decades similar to Anglicans.
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So, they are not moving further out of the orbit of the Catholic Church by joining Pentecostal Churches or the Baptists, etc.?
 
I was doing a bit of research this morning on the growth or decline of Lutheranism, and I came across this recent article concerning the ELCA:

Lutheran Exceptionalism—from Hope to Decline
juicyecumenism.com/2013/08/02/lutheran-exceptionalism-from-hope-to-decline/

At its inception in 1988 the ELCA it had about 5.3 million members in 11,133 churches. Every year but two has marked decline in membership; every year has marked a loss of congregations. In 2010 and 2011 after the decisions of 2009 in which gay blessings and ordinations were approved, the ELCA lost 710 congregations. Now two break-off churches—Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ and the North American Lutheran Church—account for about 1100 congregations. In 2011 the ELCA listed 4,059,785 members and 9,638 congregations. By 2013 there is little doubt it has fallen below 4,000,000. From 2003-2011 weekly attendance dropped by 26% across the church. There is decline in every demographic, every geographic area.

Liberal Lutherans in Canada have suffered even more losses, if that can be imagined. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada has followed closely in the liberal steps of the ELCA, with similar results. Founded in 1986 it has dropped from 262,000 members to 139,000. Fifty-four congregations have closed with 64 more likely to follow. Thirty-five have departed for other Lutheran bodies, 19 to the new North American Lutheran Church.
 
Like Anglicans, most Lutherans maintain their identity as Lutheran, probably because of the strong confessional beliefs. It is an issue of the Church forging ground in the understanding of gender and orientation [women clergy, gay marriage].
 
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