500 Years of Protestantism: 38 Things Martin Luther Wrote

[steve_b]

The city of Corinth was a roman colony. That there were close links with the mother city is suggested by the travels of Prisc(illa) and Aquila.

This is the Roman empire. You’re going to find Romans in all parts of the empire. Using your argument, the entire Roman empire is a Roman colony then.

 

[Novocastrian]

This is the Roman empire. You’re going to find Romans in all parts of the empire. Using your argument, the entire Roman empire is a Roman colony then.

No, it was a Roman colony in the technical sense of the word, founded by julius caesar in the 40s BC for roman veterans. This is confirmed by the presence of so many latin names in both the epigraphy of the city and in romans 16. Connections with Rome were further heightened due to Rome’s economic and strategic interest in Corinth’s twin seaports on either side of the isthmus. This close relationship had ecclesiastical parallels right up through the first six or seven Christian centuries, with cities like Athens and Thessaloniki as part of the Roman patriarchate.

 

[JonNC]

=steve b;11247921]definitionally,
therefore, If you say you accept primacy then you also agree to supremacy. They are synonyms

GKC answered this quite well.

Don’t miss the point. If previously there were some who argued the point of the DC, they didn’t change anything, nor create disorder over their opinions, nor did they divide the Church over it.

Luther put action to his opinions by actually creating his own bible, & changing 7 canonical books to apocryphal status.

And that has affected you how?

He used his opinion to demote 3 NT books to lesser works than the canonical books.

Actually, its four, not three, and his views are historical. The term Antilegomena dates back to the early Church. Again, this affects you, Steve, how?

Let’s be clear here on how we present this. James is a canonical book. It is scripture. And we know what Paul says about scripture.

Well, we hit something we agree on. Luther agreed on it, too. "…I will say nothing of the fact that many assert with much probability that this epistle is not by James the apostle, and that it is not worthy of an apostolic spirit; although, whoever was its author,* it has come to be regarded as authoritative**."*

Even though the scriptures he’s talking about are the OT books, because the NT while in the process of being written, hasn’t been identified yet, collected, and canonized as scripture which wouldn’t come for 300+ years after Paul wrote that… the point being, given what Luther did to the OT, who is he to make judgements about emphasizing or de-emphasizing any book in scripture? By, as you say, making comparisons between books, calling James like straw compared to other HE LIKES, He’s really contradicting [2 Tim 3:16]. James is scripture just as much as any book in scripture.

Why is he not allowed to make judgements? Lots of people did it. It seems like some want to set up a different set of rules for what Luther said and did, and what others even of his time era said and did.
Why is he not allowed to make a comparative statement? Is it simply because it is Luther that makes that comparison? Stating an opinion about a book that has, from the time of Eusebius, been disputed seems quite reasonable to me, and it certainly isn’t violating Timothy.

We all have free will. Without it we would be culpable of NOTHING, there would be no need for a savior, no need even for this discussion. But that’s not the case.

Protestant division from Our Lord’s Church in the 16th century and the proliferation of division that ensued, remains because those in division, have dug in to defend their right to be divided from Our Lord’s Church. People are defending division from the Catholic Church. And they’ve learned every argument protestantism can provide to support 500 years of maintaining that division. None of this protest absolves any person from being divided from Our Lord’s Church. Protestantism no matter the stripe, no matter the name they want to use, is Our Lord’s Church. All of them have one thing in common, in their divisions, they are all outside Our Lord’s Church. Our Lord never taught seperate but equal. He condemned it.

On the bolded parts of your opinion I agree.

Here’s why it is not triumphalism

You know scripture condems division from Our Lord’s Church. That means the people who do it or remain outside and die seperated from His Church don’t go to heaven.

Of course, but I’m not separated for our Lord’s Church.

an example of not being triumphalism:

If I knowing this, said to you, I sure wouldn’t leave the Catholic Church and join you in the Lutheran Church because it would be hell for me, but I don’t mind if you go to hell,… I would be breaking the commandments BIG TIME

You probably know already where I’m going with this.

Sure I do. But it is triumphalism to say that simply because I am not in communion with the Bishop of Rome, I am condemned.

When Jesus was asked what is the greatest commandment He said Matthew 22:35-40

therefore, going back to my example above,(paraphrased) If I said I cared about myself and not you, technically I would be breaking both commandments. So what I say my friend, I say out of love, not triumphalism.

I’m not saying your position is not out of love. I am saying that the belief that I am condemned because I am not in communion with the Bishop of Rome is triumphalism, in my view.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

That raises an interesting question, Jon.

You may not lose many members, but where do those who leave Lutheranism go most commonly?

I honestly don’t know. My guess is, and it is different from what my hope would be, they go to some form of Protestantism - perhaps even non-denom.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Like Anglicans, most Lutherans maintain their identity as Lutheran, probably because of the strong confessional beliefs.

That would be the Lutherans who understand the confessions. I had a conversation this morning with a member, discussing a family that left our parish and has started attending a local Methodist church. We are a very small parish, and the Methodist church is quite large, offering youth and family activities we can’t. While we suspected that is why they left, it would be impossible for me to so, just on the belief regarding the sacrament. As an elder, I take some responsibility for not being more insistent on catechesis.

It is an issue of the Church forging ground in the understanding of gender and orientation [women clergy, gay marriage]

Scripture and the confessions forged that ground long ago.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Originally posted by steve b

When Jesus was asked what is the greatest commandment He said Matthew 22:35-40

therefore, going back to my example above,(paraphrased) If I said I cared about myself and not you, technically I would be breaking both commandments. So what I say my friend, I say out of love, not triumphalism.

Originally posted by JonNC
I’m not saying your position is not out of love. I am saying that the belief that I am condemned because I am not in communion with the Bishop of Rome is triumphalism, in my view.

Steve,
I want to state this more forcefully. I do not, in any way, believe you state your views out of anything other than Christian compassion and caring. I do not want to leave you with the opinion that I think otherwise.

Jon

 

[hn160]

So, they are not moving further out of the orbit of the Catholic Church by joining Pentecostal Churches or the Baptists, etc.?

I was a member of liberal ELCA, I left to become a member of an conserative LC-MS church because I disagreed on certain fundamental issues. By the same token,we lost some embers to the ELCA and non-denominational churches because of the Missouri Synod’s stand on homosexuality, women’s ordination, and abortion. None have ever went to Rome.
Missouri’s biggest problem is that some of their Lutherans want to be Pentecostal in worship with praise bands because they think that will drive church growth instead of letting the Holy Spirit do His work

 

[Peter_J]

I was a member of liberal ELCA, I left to become a member of an conserative LC-MS church because I disagreed on certain fundamental issues. By the same token,we lost some embers to the ELCA and non-denominational churches because of the Missouri Synod’s stand on homosexuality, women’s ordination, and abortion. None have ever went to Rome.

That’s hard to believe.

 

[Peter_J]

I could venture a guess that most who leave Lutheranism stop going to church altogether

Please clarify: do you mean that this phenomenon happens particularly among Lutherans, or do you think it is just as true among, say, Roman Catholics or Anglicans? (I.e. that most who leave Roman Catholicism stop going to church altogether?)

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I was a member of liberal ELCA, I left to become a member of an conserative LC-MS church because I disagreed on certain fundamental issues. By the same token,we lost some embers to the ELCA and non-denominational churches because of the Missouri Synod’s stand on homosexuality, women’s ordination, and abortion. None have ever went to Rome.
Missouri’s biggest problem is that some of their Lutherans want to be Pentecostal in worship with praise bands because they think that will drive church growth instead of letting the Holy Spirit do His work

From my years of “Protest” , Pentecostal Worship is probably the thing that I miss the most, and the fellowship that followed.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

That’s hard to believe.

That he knows . What he doesn’t know, doesn’t hurt him

 

[Per_Crucem]

That’s hard to believe.

Well, it wouldn’t be hard to believe that people who left the LCMS over abortion, women’s ordination, and homosexuality would go to the ELCA and not Rome

 

[MaryT777]

That he knows . What he doesn’t know, doesn’t hurt him

LOL! Good point.

 

[pocohombre]

Funny, because I’m more concerned about how many Lutherans have drifted away from our catholicity.

Jon

Very good. Yes, the pendulum swings. Still, it is quite a “protestant” thought that it can (swing…in the wrong direction). Very humbling to see oneself and one’s church as “fallible”, leaving only one thing infallible- His perfect love,correction and salvation for His bride.

 

[hn160]

That’s hard to believe.

I was speaking about the church that I am a member, none have gone to Rome. Before we found our current church, my wife and I thought about taking the plunge.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I was speaking about the church that I am a member, none have gone to Rome. Before we found our current church, my wife and I thought about taking the plunge.

Now, THAT is fascinating.

 

[steve_b]

No, it was a Roman colony in the technical sense of the word, founded by julius caesar in the 40s BC for roman veterans. This is confirmed by the presence of so many latin names in both the epigraphy of the city and in romans 16. Connections with Rome were further heightened due to Rome’s economic and strategic interest in Corinth’s twin seaports on either side of the isthmus. This close relationship had ecclesiastical parallels right up through the first six or seven Christian centuries, with cities like Athens and Thessaloniki as part of the Roman patriarchate.

1. 
   *]In the 1st century which is what we’re talking about, the State was trying to wipe the Church off the map in the Roman empire. The state had nothing to do with internal Church matters, nor why Corinth asked The Church in Rome for help settle sedition of their bishops.
   *]there is no patriarchal system in the 1st century.
   *]There is the chair of Peter in Rome

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Some of the most talented Lutheran theologians in America have converted to Catholicism. They call it the “Lutheran landslide” and these priests/ bishop come from both the ELCA and LCMS. I was among fellow seminarians and clergy to hear homilies and dined with Father Neuhaus at St John the Evangelist parish [LCMS] in Brooklyn and studied Wilken and Philip Max Johnson.

What do my fellow Lutherans think about our brightest stars jumping ship?

What first began with prominent Lutherans, such as Richard John Neuhaus (1990) and Robert Wilken (1994), coming into the Catholic Church, has become more of a landslide that could culminate in a larger body of Lutherans coming into the collectively.

In 2000, former Canadian Lutheran Bishop Joseph Jacobson came into the Church.

“No other Church really can duplicate what Jesus gave,” Jacobson told the Western Catholic Reporter in 2006.

In 2003, Leonard Klein, a prominent Lutheran and the former editor of Lutheran Forum and Forum Letter came into the Church. Today, both Jacobson and Klein are Catholic priests.

Over the past several years, an increasing number of Lutheran theologians have joined the Church’s ranks, some of whom now teach at Catholic colleges and universities. They include, but are not limited to: Paul Quist (2005), Richard Ballard (2006), Paul Abbe (2006), Thomas McMichael, Mickey Mattox, David Fagerberg, Bruce Marshall, Reinhard Hutter, Philip Max Johnson, and most recently, Dr. Michael Root (2010).
ncregister.com/blog/tim-drake/the-lutheran-landslide

 

[benjohnson]

What do my fellow Lutherans think about our brightest stars jumping ship?

We also lose some bright people to the Orthodox faith. Frankly - let me say this generally but succinctly:

They suck.

The good shepherd doesn’t desert his flock.

Now… if they brought their flock with them or made a noble attempt, then that’s ok.

Our reaction should be is that we need to make our church such that there is no reason to leave - but with all the contemporary worship, nutty secular theology, and politics in our synods, I can understand why they left.

But I’ll never understand turning one’s back on good people that need their shepherd.

 

[Per_Crucem]

We also lose some bright people to the Orthodox faith. Frankly - let me say this generally but succinctly:

They suck.

The good shepherd doesn’t desert his flock.

Now… if they brought their flock with them or made a noble attempt, then that’s ok.

Our reaction should be is that we need to make our church such that there is no reason to leave - but with all the contemporary worship, nutty secular theology, and politics in our synods, I can understand why they left.

But I’ll never understand turning one’s back on good people that need their shepherd.

Amen.