51% Protestant

[jmcrae]

I think to myself, Were the Apostles required 100% adherence to the dogma/doctrine of Jesus, even if it was way outside the essentials and out on a hermeneutical limb of how they interpreted the old testament, or the way the pharisees and sadducees taught?

I find it difficult to imagine the Apostles taking time out to teach anything that they considered “non-essential” and then saying, “But it’s okay - that’s just my personal opinion. If you disagree, you’re still in communion with the Church.”

If I had been an Early Christian, I would have said, “If this is non-essential, or even possibly false, then why did you teach it to us?”

 

[kdmay68]

Hey MichaelP,

You might remember me. I was in your Theology program a while back. I had been raised in the evangelical Protetant tradition and after my mother died, felt a sudden desire and hunger to learn theology and church history and learn why I believd what I believed. Growing up in a devout evangelical christian home, I had never heard about Martin Luther, the Reformation, the Apostolic and Church Fathers. At the time I began your program, I was anti-catholic. I didin’t understand where they got some of their theology because it wasn’t in the Bible. Where did catholics come from anyway?

A funny thing happened. I am no longer Protestant. As Cardinal Newman has said, "To be deep in history is to cease being a Protestant.“ Having been faced with issues and questions that were impossible to answer as a Protestant, I have decided to become Catholic. In fact, having been anti-catholic, I have fallen in love with the Catholic Church. Why? Because it has the Real presense of Christ and the direct successor of St. Peter. The Church Fathers unanimously confirm this.

Michael, what I don’t understand is how you can totally dismiss what the Apostolic and Church fathers taught. I seen your comment to Dr. Francis Beckwith where you accused him of placing too much emphasis on the Church Fathers in his conversion to the Catholic Church. What?!?! Yet you place so much emphasis on the reformers, as if they trump the Church Fathers! The Fathers (Irenaeus, Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement of Rome, et. al.) clearly believed in the Real Presense in the Eucharist, Apostolic succession through the succession of bishops, the Sacraments, etc. Furthermore, the doctrine of Sola Fide and *Sola Scriptura *is nowhere to be found in the first 1500 years of the Church. Why would such a crucial doctrine of salvation have been completely absent for the first fifteen centuries? Why, according to your theology, would the Holy Spirit wait 1500 years to reveal this crucial teaching? Was nobody saved because Sola Fide hadn’t come along yet? When one reads the Gospels, one doesn’t see Jesus teaching fatih ALONE. One see Jesus commanding us to FOLLOW His commands. This requires faith-in-action, not faith alone.

I took your Intro to Theology class and Bibliography and Hermaneutics class and I still can’t see where the Bible teaches Sola Scriptura. 2 Tim 3:15-17 does not say scripture ALONE is our authority. For Sola Sciptura to be true,then scripture needs to state this and it does not apart from doing eisogesis!

God Bless,
Kevin

 

[runandsew]

I find it difficult to imagine the Apostles taking time out to teach anything that they considered “non-essential” and then saying, “But it’s okay - that’s just my personal opinion. If you disagree, you’re still in communion with the Church.”

If I had been an Early Christian, I would have said, “If this is non-essential, or even possibly false, then why did you teach it to us?”

That was a rhetorical question.

I was trying to show that Christians need to submit to an authority outside scripture, and how dumb it would have been for the Apostles to not totally submit to the authority of Jesus.
Well Jesus left us a church with all of his authority to loose and bind.

The question is whether that authority is the church itself to tell us what the writers of the new testament meant when writing about faith and morals, or were we left with the bible only to teach us faith and morals, and if it the bible only, then how does a Christian know that he is interpreting the bible correctly, is their opinion infallible, or does it matter how one interprets the bible in the case of faith and morals?

 

[jmcrae]

That was a rhetorical question.

I was trying to show that Christians need to submit to an authority outside scripture, and how dumb it would have been for the Apostles to not totally submit to the authority of Jesus.
Well Jesus left us a church with all of his authority to loose and bind.

The question is whether that authority is the church itself to tell us what the writers of the new testament meant when writing about faith and morals, or were we left with the bible only to teach us faith and morals, and if it the bible only, then how does a Christian know that he is interpreting the bible correctly, is their opinion infallible, or does it matter how one interprets the bible in the case of faith and morals?

I agree with you completely.

 

[michaelp]

Hopefully you are not leaving the narrow path for the wide path. I read a good book called Getting the Gospel Right by RC Sproul and that went through the Evangelicals and Catholic Together Documents - as well as the document by Evangelicals called The Gift of Salvation (I think??). Have you read this??

Yes, I did read this. I am not sure what you mean about the narrow and wide path in this case.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Smaller is not irrevelant and I don’t think that is what the Pope meant to say. But the church and Christianity in general is becoming irrelevant more and more in the day to day lives of folks in the West - IMO.

This is extremely vague and completely unsubstantiated. How does this contribute to common ground? Or is it meant to burn bridges instead?

 

[JesseW]

I believe Pope Benedict said that the Church must get smaller. Do you see this as a problem for Christians?

Even as a Protestant, I was excited when I heard your new Pope say this. In a time when orthodoxy is caving in to cultural pressures around the world on both sides of the camp, it is great to hear it addressed directly from the Vatican.

Oh wait, let me back up. I took Pope Benedict to mean that secularism has crept into the Church and there are too many secular pseudo-Christians within the fold. By tightening up on doctrinal positions, etc, it is bound to flush the wolves out from among the lambs so to speak. It may get smaller, but it will get stronger!

Let me know if anyone interpreted his statement differently.

 

[michaelp]

Hi Kevin,

Great to hear from you. Thanks for responding. I pray that you are doing well.

You said something curious, “Michael, what I don’t understand is how you can totally dismiss what the Apostolic and Church fathers taught.”

I hope that I have never given that impression. I don’t know how you could have thought this. Maybe “totally” was a wrong word?

Believe me Kevin, I have read and do read the church fathers extensively. Church history is my first love. I just don’t see things the way you do. I love the quote you gave, but it does beg the question as to why I myself and people like Mark Noll and Jeff Bingham have not ceased to be Protestant. There may be more to it than a simple quote

Either way, I think the point here was to discuss the importance of what unites us.

My thoughts are these right now: I don’t think anyone can believe that Christ is God and fall down at His feet and beg for mercy outside of the Holy Spirit. I believe both Catholics and Protestants can claim this. I don’t think this relieves us of some of the other difficulties, but this is a VERY large bridge that I am unwilling to turn a blind eye to.

“Who do you say that I am?” This is the most important theological question. Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox all have this correct, while liberals, cults, and skeptics all would deny such a claim. We may not hold hands on everything, but on this we are united, whether people admit it or not.

God bless my friend.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

By tightening up on doctrinal positions, etc, it is bound to flush the wolves out from among the lambs so to speak. It may get smaller, but it will get stronger!

This I believe is one of the things he meant.

 

[michaelp]

Oh, btw, James White just got into the mix on the blog post 51% Protestant.

 

[estesbob]

This is extremely vague and completely unsubstantiated. How does this contribute to common ground? Or is it meant to burn bridges instead?

I am always amused at those who claim that they have left Christianiy behind but still feel the need to tell us on a daily basis what a wise thing it was.

 

[cpayne]

I am always amused at those who claim that they have left Christianiy behind but still feel the need to tell us on a daily basis what a wise thing it was.

Yes. As G.K. Chesterton wrote in a different context, people always claim Christianity and Buddhism really teach the same things, as long as they’re Buddhists.

Observant Christians are supposedly the last to know what Jesus “really” meant.

 

[bankerdavid]

I applaud your effort. The thing that finally got me to leave Christianity were the divisons. 24,000 or so denomominations believing drastically different things. As a Muslim missionary at my door told me a few years back - or asked me - does not that prove the prayer of Jesus that “they be one” was not efficaciois and, if so, how could he be God?

Well, I did not become Muslim but the absolute contradictions I found in Christianity finally led me to leave.

I’ve said it before, if you could combine the witness of my evangelical BMF friends with the Christian theology as so well taught by Scott Hahn then Christianity might be a force in the world again. As it is, it seems the battle is coming down to Western secularism vs Islam with Christianity hardly a player.

Christ did establish one Church. Man, with the help of the Devil’s lies, decided he wanted to worship his way (man’s way), and so they do. Jesus taught us how to worship Him, and the Holy Spirit showed us how to apply His word. Catholics, true The Catholic Church tries to show those in error that they are in error, and how they are in error, and how to make it right.
Secularism is those of the world making importance of worldly things and ideas. Christ is not of the world, and when He comes again, there will finally be unity again.

 

[jmcrae]

I took Pope Benedict to mean that secularism has crept into the Church and there are too many secular pseudo-Christians within the fold. By tightening up on doctrinal positions, etc, it is bound to flush the wolves out from among the lambs so to speak. It may get smaller, but it will get stronger!

Let me know if anyone interpreted his statement differently.

That’s exactly what I thought he meant, too. I think it’s good that people are being made to understand what the Church actually teaches, and that you can’t be a member if you don’t believe that.

People who are attending Mass but don’t believe it have two choices:

First, they can choose to “make a leap of faith” and believe the teachings of the Church, or

Second, they can cling to their errors, and leave the Church.

The second is probably easier, so that will be the road that many of these people will take. A lot of them will be noisy about it, but they won’t change the Church’s stand, for all that - we’ve had a few cases recently of people who were absolutely astounded and horrified that they couldn’t just “rent” a priest and a Catholic Church for their illicit and invalid wedding ceremony, and then claim to have been “married in the Catholic Church,” because the big mean Catholic Church requires that we believe and practice what it teaches, before allowing us to partake of the Sacraments - any of the Sacraments; not just Holy Communion.

These people will leave, but they and their children will understand that they are not Catholic, and they won’t scandalize the neighbors by claiming to be Catholic while doing things that go totally against Catholic teaching.

 

[clmowry]

Smaller is not irrevelant and I don’t think that is what the Pope meant to say. But the church and Christianity in general is becoming irrelevant more and more in the day to day lives of folks in the West - IMO.

That’s probably true for a majority of folks. People in the west do like to do what they like to do.

Chrisitan morality just gets in the way.

Why let others get in the way of me me me.

But at the same time, I see a strong resurgence of the Catholic faith, particularly among young people.

People still know a lie when they hear one. Sometime the lies get so repulsive that what once was attractive drives folks back to the truth.

Chuck

 

[RonRule]

It’s an excellent blog post with a great combox discussion. Thanks for sharing it with us, Michael.

As a Catholic convert of one year from an evangelical protestant background (Bible Church, then a brief time in Anglicanism), I have been following some of your writing and podcasts for a while now. I’ve been immensely impressed by your charity and your desire to represent the views of others accurately. I will continue pointing people towards your work for this reason, as it is a refreshing balance to those who distort for the sake of polemics.

 

[michaelp]

Thanks Ron. Hopefully we can all get some stuff done as long as we all understand that everyone who disagrees with us is not simply ignorant. There are some really good people on both sides of these issues and, in my mind, God must have a reason for allowing so much diversity. But we should be able to recognize how much we have in common when we are all Christocentric.

God bless my friend

 

[Writer]

I understand the discouragement you feel and don’t really offer any advice or “correction,” just a testimony as to how I deal with this issue.

I do believe that the Christian faith is correct, not because of unity, but because I can’t get by the resurrection. However, the “unity” that Christ prayed for I would define as an organic rather than purely creedal. Just as my children fight over many things, this does not make them cease to be sibling, they just don’t act like it. I also look at the basic creeds that have unified the historic Christian faith (who Christ is, what he did, the authority of Scripture and its clarity on many things, etc). I don’t look at the exceptions such as Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormon to be part of the historic Christian faith by definition. Therefore, their advant does not discourage me.

Well, anyway, with understanding I leave you for now.

True enough–to a point. But when Christ prays “let them be one as we are one”, it should really give Protestants pause. Our ministry and reflection of Christ’s love itself is distorted by the divisions within the ranks. Yes, we are still brothers and sisters with our “separated brothers” in Christ, but that separation is a reflection of the fallen nature of man more than it is the perfect example of love and grace of Jesus.

 

[michaelp]

True enough–to a point. But when Christ prays “let them be one as we are one”, it should really give Protestants pause. Our ministry and reflection of Christ’s love itself is distorted by the divisions within the ranks. Yes, we are still brothers and sisters with our “separated brothers” in Christ, but that separation is a reflection of the fallen nature of man more than it is the perfect example of love and grace of Jesus.

You know what, maybe I am reading this wrong, but I agree completly. I am in no way comfortable with disagreements. Heck, I often disagree with myself sometimes. Disagreements internally, in both Protestantism and Catholicism, and external disagreements between the two are part of the fall, but at the same time, may serve a good purpose when our perspective changes. Iron sharening iron.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

RonRule:

It’s an excellent blog post with a great combox discussion. Thanks for sharing it with us, Michael.

As a Catholic convert of one year from an evangelical protestant background (Bible Church, then a brief time in Anglicanism), I have been following some of your writing and podcasts for a while now. I’ve been immensely impressed by your charity and your desire to represent the views of others accurately.

What a heartwarming recommendation of Mr p’s website!

I note that you started here at CA at about the time that Mr p last visited us. At that time, we were graced with an extraordinary number of threads starring Mr p’s theories together with links that led to Mr p’s website.

Some of us were so intrigued with Mr p’s point of view and persistence in drawing us to the truth that we pored over the other webpages on that site. Imagine our disorientation to find there quite a tidy little number of ‘teachings’ on Catholicism which were not even remotely respectful of accuracy.



Some articles actually appeared quite hostile toward Catholicism!



Thing about Catholicism though, as you likely have already learned: it is about history and therefore it is about research. Sooner or later the truth has its way.

Reassuring, isn’t it? I just love that about Catholicism. Don’t you?

I note that the emphasis on this thread is once again on Mr p’s prowess as a teacher. During Mr p’s last little visit over here at CA, Mr p did not do quite as well as a student, though it appeared to many of us that he might benefit by opening his mind to enlarging – albeit difficult – ideas like the Real Presence.

RonRule:

I will continue pointing people towards your work for this reason, as it is a refreshing balance to those who distort for the sake of polemics.

How very thoughtful of you to point folks toward the Mr p’s teaching. As a new Catholic, Mr Rule, I can only assume that you must be similarly thrilled with the wealth of teaching at the CA Library and at Vatican.va and at New Advent. Am I wrong? I would be very interested to see how you compare/contrast these two disparate views of history.

Church Militant is an old-timer here at CA. He came from a non-Catholic background too and remembers Mr p well. I often find Mr Militant’s insights and sensibilities to be very educational; he has an extraordinary grasp of history and – therefore – of Church teaching. He has led a couple of threads on the Gospel which were wonderful.

cpayne – a newer member of CA – is in the process of crossing the Tiber at present and is among the best prepared among us in terms of history and thought. And he is not alone. There are quite a few formidable minds and hearts here. I find that I have my hands full being their student. I trust that Mr p will also have his hands full and will benefit greatly from this visit.