57 Years Mormon

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tgGodsway said:
Secondly, Jesus is called the “first-born” of Mary, implying others were born of her, to which scripture named at least four of her children, and two girls. This too was a mistake on the shoulders of Rome. I can go on about mistakes, but I am not here to insult you. I just want to reason with you.
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You guys just don’t give up do you… here’s how wrong you are…
tgGodsway said:
implying others were born
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So Jesus while about to die, sees that His brothers and sisters, the whole useless lot of them, did not come to his execution so He got even with them by giving away His mothers; of course, that was the Jewish custom of reprisal, correct?

Further, why is it that you buy into terms as “implied” or “biblical/non-biblical” when there’s no such thing in Scriptures.

Further still, why is it that you can get to tell when it is literal and when it is figurative and when it is explicit and when implied is just as good as done?

Remember Jesus Commanding you to chew His Flesh and drink His Blood? Why do you not?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
So God cannot send an angel, say the archangel Gabriel to a virgin?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Hi, Lemuel!

(Excellent screen name! 👍👍👍👍)

Exactly! Ever heard of ‘Animal Farm?’

The premise is that all animals are created equal… then after taking over the farm and killing the opposition: ‘but some are more equal than others,’ is written with the blood of the victim.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
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Hi, John!

…I don’t think that their plans includes such unity.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
jcrichton said:
…I don’t think that their plans includes such unity.
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Mormon unity:

We’re right, and you’re going to hell unless you convert. Everybody sing together now . . . Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah, Jesus anointed that prophet and seer . . . 🎼
 
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I also find interesting that there’s a connection root to Emmanuel (Spanish for Immanuel).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Yeah, that’s what I gathered from Anon’s posts and my personal encounter some years back when I was told, ‘you are not ready to learn the truth’ (I refused to go along with the “feel good” theology and accept the book of Mormons as equal authority to the Bible) ‘call us when you are ready to learn.’ (three young men, one of them some senior member, attempted to school me about the truth–it didn’t take, I’m quite a staunch pedestrian Catholic 😜); so while Christians must aspire for Unity in Christ… some times it must be left to prayer.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
To other faithful Catholics here…that last paragraph, is It true? I thought Jesus was Mary’s only child.
 
The fact that I’m on a Catholic forum connecting and engaging proves you wrong. I have no disconnect with anyone. Your answers are starting to sound very predictable
 
jcrichton said:
Hi!

Could you elaborate on where Sacred Scriptures Teaches against God’s Divinity, and God’s Creation, and God’s Holy Trinity?

Maran atha!

Angel
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Hey there! I’ll see what I can do. I do not believe that Sacred Scripture teaches against God’s divinity, God’s Creation, nor against the Father, the Son nor the Holy Spirit. But rather, Sacred Scripture does not teach of a single Divinity, Creation ex-Nihilo, nor the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e., three Divine Persons sharing one substance or essence).

Regarding there being multiple Divine Beings, here’s the explanation (borrowing heavily from Mormonism and the nature of God/"No God beside me" - FAIR)

Passages such as Isa 44:6,8 and 45:5,21 that read “no God beside me” or a variation of that phrase are traditionally interpreted by Orthodox Christians as meaning that other than Yahweh no form of deity exists at all, including exalted men. This type of interpretation at first seems obvious, but after considering similar passages in other parts of scripture it is clear that this interpretation is incorrect.

For example, Isaiah 47:8-10 depicts the city of Babylon as saying:

Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:
For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.

These passages use the exact same phrase as Isa 44 and 45, yet they certainly do not exclude the existence of any city other than Babylon. The city of Ninevah would be very upset if this were the case, as Zephaniah depicts Ninevah in Zephaniah 2:15 as saying:

This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am, and there is none beside me: how is she become a desolation, a place for beasts to lie down in! every one that passeth by her shall hiss, and wag his hand.

Again it is clear that this phrase does not exclude the very existence of other cities. Using these parallel phrases makes it clear that Isaiah is not excluding the very existence of any other deity when he quotes Yahweh as declaring “there is no God beside me.” There are, in fact, several scriptures in the Old Testament that imply that Yahweh is in fact one of a number of Gods, albeit supreme. Compare the following passages from the KJV, NIV and ESV versions of the Bible:

• And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints. For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord? God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him. O Lord God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee? (KJV Psalms 89:5-8)

end of part 1 regarding multiple divine beings
 
What first grace are you talking about and how does the Bible teach it?
 
part 2 …

• The heavens praise your wonders, O LORD, your faithfulness too, in the assembly of the holy ones. For who in the skies above can compare with the LORD? Who is like the LORD among the heavenly beings [fn. Lit "sons of god(s)]? In the council of holy ones God is greatly feared; he is more awesome than all who surround him. O LORD God almighty, who is like you? You are mighty, O LORD, and your faithfulness surrounds you (NIV Psalms 89:5-8).

• Among all the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works (Psalms 86:8).

• God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment (ESV Psalms 82:1)

• God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. (KJV Psalms 82:1)

These scriptures speak of divine beings, “gods” who are the “sons of god(s)” who are heavenly beings who dwell in the skies. These cannot be idols or false gods. Yahweh dwells among them, reigns over them, and holds judgment in their midst.

Another favorite scripture of the critics of the LDS doctrine of exaltation is Isaiah 43:10. They seem to believe it contradicts this doctrine when it says:

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Whether this passage is referring to false idols who represent deities that do not exist, or whether it refers to real divine beings who exist alongside and subordinate to Yahweh is not crucial for responding to this particular criticism. The passage specifically says “before” and “after” Yahweh. Since Yahweh has always existed, and since He will always exist no man can ever be exalted “before” or “after” Yahweh. All men who are exalted to godhood will be contemporaries of Yahweh, and will never precede nor follow Yahweh’s existence. They will also become part of the divine council over which he presides.

Wherefore, as it is written, [the inhabitants of the Celestial Kingdom] are gods, even the sons of God (D&C 76:58).

Justin Martyr quote:
[T]here is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is called an Angel…. I shall endeavor to persuade you, that He is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things – numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will.” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 56)
 
Regarding Creation ex-Nihilo…

Stanley L. Jaki, a Catholic priest of the Benedictine Order, stated:

The caution which is in order about taking the [Hebrew] verb bara in the sense of creation out of nothing is no less needed in reference to the [English] word creation. Nothing is more natural, and unadvised, at the same time, than to use the word as if it has always denoted creation out of nothing. In its basic etymological origin the word creation meant the purely natural process of growing or of making something to grow. This should be obvious by a mere recall of the [Latin] verb crescere. The crescent moon [derived from crescere] is not creating but merely growing. The expression ex nihilo or de nihilo had to be fastened, from around 200 A.D. on, by Christian theologians on the verb creare to convey unmistakably a process, strict creation, which only God can perform. Only through the long-standing use of those very Latin expressions, creare ex nihilo and creatio ex nihilo, could the English words to create and creation take on the meaning which excludes pre-existing matter. Stanley L. Jaki, Genesis 1 Through the Ages (Royal Oak, Mich.: Real View Books, 1998), 5-6.

Peter Hayman records:
“Nearly all recent studies on the origin of the doctrine of creation ex nihilo have come to the conclusion that this doctrine is not native to Judaism, is nowhere attested in the Hebrew Bible, and probably arose in Christianity in the second century C. E. in the course of its fierce battle with Gnosticism.” (Peter Hayman, “Monotheism – A misused word in Jewish Studies?”)
 
I thought so. Doesn’t the Bible use the words sons and daughters differently than we do?
 
Figurative speech usually comes with qualifying words in the immediate context in most cases. Literal speech should be understood at face value. For instance. He sat in the chair. How should we interpret? Literally, unless there is a clue that would lead to the possibility of a figure of speech. He sat in the chair of understanding. As to the bread and wine. We are also salt and light.
 
Regarding the doctrine of the Trinity, it’s widely understood by scholars the this doctrine is not found in the New Testament.

“Indeed, until Athanasius began writing, every single theologian, East and West, had postulated some form of Subordinationism. It could, about the year 300, have been described as a fixed part of catholic theology.” (R. P. C. Hansen)

The New Testament itself is far from any doctrine of the Trinity or of a triune God who is three co-equal Persons of One Nature. (William J. Hill, The Three-Personed God (Washington DC: The Catholic University of America Press, 1982), 27.)

There is no formal doctrine of the Trinity in the New Testament writers, if this means an explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. (Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1972), 44

There is in them [the Apostolic Fathers], of course, no trinitarian doctrine and no awareness of a trinitarian problem. (JND Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, revised edition, (New York: Harper, 1978), 95.)

What does John 17:22 say? And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one

Christ specifically prays that His disciples become one as the Father and Son already are. What type of unity is Jesus hoping for His disciples? Consubstantiality? Or oneness of purpose? I say the latter.

I hope these posts help…

Take care and God bless you.
 
tgGodsway said:
What first grace are you talking about and how does the Bible teach it?
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Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 
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