57 Years Mormon

[jcrichton]

When you read “brothers” in the NT, you need to read the word in quotes because it has many, many meanings. Particularly in ancient (and very clannish) Jewish society, the sons of your aunts and uncles were your “brothers” as well.

Hi, Vonsalza!

This is a practice that even today (well till when I was a child) still holds; as people living in a close community would have extended family members addressed as brothers/sisters… and in some cases those titles would include non-blood relations who happened to be growing up in the same household or family farm/business.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I thought there was something going on… but even this excerpt contradicts his argument: God in number (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is Singular in Will (God is Spirit: One)!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[gazelam]

The BOM says that Jesus was conceived “after the manner of the flesh.”

And also says in Alma 7:10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God

virgin birth…

“Christ was begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.”

Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547

“Modernistic teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false.”

Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 822

…and virgin birth.

 

[gazelam]

Let’s also be honest. He skirted the point I made by saying that Mary was a virgin. Mormons justify her virginity by saying that she didn’t have sex with a mortal man. Having sex with God does not take away her virginity. That’s how they spin it.

This is an error.

 

[gazelam]

jcrichton:

gazelam:

Justin Martyr quote:

[T]here is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is called an Angel…. I shall endeavor to persuade you, that He is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things – numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will.” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 56)

Can you clarify what you are quoting here?

This, aside from the erroneous interpretation of “Angel,” actually contradicts your argument: distinct: Number (Father, Son, Holy Spirit); not distinct in Will (One God).

Maran atha!

Angel

He’s misquoting Justin Martyr. The Dialogue with Trypho is an excellent example of Trinitarian belief. It’s really quite an amazing work.

Not sure what the issue is here. New Advent has the same wording.

 

[Indyann]

Sir, you say you have been studying the Catholic faith for several hours a day for 7 years? I do not know what you have been studying, but it is not the Roman Catholic Church. I don’t think I have heard a bigger lie in a long, long time. If a Catholic should leave the Church, they are welcomed back with open arms. If they never return, we hope and pray that God will have mercy on their soul. We pronounce no one in hell or wish anyone is in hell. I pray that God has mercy on your soul.

 

[Lemuel]

This is an error.

In a “classic sermon delivered by President Joseph F. Smith at the Box Elder Stake conference of December 20, 1914, as recorded in the Box Elder News of January 28, 1915″ (Hoyt W. Brewster, Jr., Doctrine and Covenants Encyclopedia, p. 398; cf. Messages of the First Presidency 4:330), he taught:

“You all know that your fathers are indeed your fathers and that your mothers are indeed your mothers you all know that don’t you? You cannot deny it. Now, we are told in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was begotten not of God but of the spirit that overshadowed his mother. This is nonsense. Why will not the world receive the truth? Why will they not believe the Father when he says that Jesus Christ is His only begotten Son? Why will they try to explain this truth away and make mystery of it? …

“Now, little boys and girls, when you are confronted by infidels in the world who know nothing of how Christ was begotten, you can say he was born just as the infidel was begotten and born, so was Christ begotten by his Father, who is also our Father—the Father of our spirits—and he was born of his mother Mary.

“The difference between Jesus Christ and other men is this: Our fathers in the flesh are mortal men, who are subject unto death; but the Father of Jesus Christ in the flesh is the God of Heaven. Therefore Jesus, as he declared, received the power of life from his Father and was never subject unto death but had life in himself as his father had life in himself. Because of this power he overcame death and the grave and became master of the resurrection and the means of salvation to us all.

“Shall we as Latter-day Saints deny the truth and then claim that God made man in his likeness in the beginning? Shall we come under the impression that God possesses the power of creation, and yet did not literally create? He is not without his companion any more than I am without my companion, the mother of my children…

“Now, by and by you will be able to understand this far better than you can today. Some of us grandparents find it difficult to conceive the truth we want to think of something marvelous. We want to try to make it appear that God does not do things in the right way, or that he has another way of doing things than what we know, we must come down to the simple fact that God Almighty was the Father of His Son Jesus Christ. Mary, the virgin girl, who had never known mortal man, was his mother. God by her begot His son Jesus Christ, and He was born into the world with power and intelligence like that of His Father…

“Now, my little friends, I will repeat again in words as simple as I can, and you talk to your parents about it, that God, the Eternal Father is literally the father of Jesus Christ.

 

[Lemuel]

(Continued from above post)

“Mary was married to Joseph for time. No man could take her for eternity because she belonged to the Father of her divine Son. In the revelation that has come thru Joseph Smith, we learn that it is the eternal purpose of God that man and woman should be joined together by the power of God here on earth for time and eternity.”

 

[Lemuel]

Being a virgin works when you redefine what it means to be a virgin. The Mormon Church is good at redefining things. That’s the only way their doctrine works. The most consistent thing about Mormonism is its inconsistency.

 

[Lemuel]

Joseph F. Smith

“Mary, the virgin girl, who had never known mortal man, was his mother.” (Box Elder Stake conference of December 20, 1914)

 

[Lemuel]

Mormon apostle, and grandfather of M. Russell Ballard wrote:

“One of the great questions that I have referred to that the world is concerned about, and is in confusion over, is as to whether or not his was a virgin birth, a birth wherein divine power interceded. Joseph Smith made it perfectly clear that Jesus Christ told the absolute truth, as did those who testify concerning him, the Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, wherein he is declared to be the very Son of God. And if God the Eternal Father is not the real Father of Jesus Christ, then are we in confusion; then is he not in reality the Son of God. But we declare that he is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh.

“Mary told the story most beautifully when she said that an angel of the Lord came to her and told her that she had found favor in the sight of God, and had come to be worthy of the fulfilment of the promises heretofore made, to become the virgin mother of the Redeemer of the world. She afterwards, referring to the event, said: ‘God hath done wonderful things unto me.’ ‘And the Holy Ghost came upon her,’ is the story, ‘and she came into the presence of the highest.’ No man or woman can live in mortality and survive the presence of the Highest except by the sustaining power of the Holy Ghost. So it came upon her to prepare her for admittance into the divine presence, and the power of the Highest, who is the Father, was present, and overshadowed her, and the holy Child that was born of her was called the Son of God.

Men who deny this, or who think that it degrades our Father, have no true conception of the sacredness of the most marvelous power with which God has endowed mortal men—the power of creation. Even though that power may be abused and may become a mere harp of pleasure to the wicked, nevertheless it is the most sacred and holy and divine function with which God has endowed man. Made holy, it is retained by the Father of us all, and in his exercise of that great and marvelous creative power and function, he did not debase himself, degrade himself, nor debauch his daughter. Thus Christ became the literal Son of a divine Father, and no one else was worthy to be his father.” (Deseret News, 23 Dec 1923; Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, 166-167; Crusader for Righteousness, 144; taught to students by BYU-Idaho professor Robert L. Marrott)

 

[Lemuel]

This statement is in error. LDS believe Mary was a virgin before and after the birth of Jesus. I hope this helps…

“Mary was a virgin… until after the birth of our Lord. Then, for the first time, she was known by Joseph, her husband; and other children, both sons and daughters, were then born to her. (Matt. 13:55-56; Mark 6:3; Gal. 1:19.) She conceived and brought forth her Firstborn Son while yet a virgin because the Father of that child was an immortal personage.” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, vol. 1, p. 82)

I hope this helps . . .

 

[petra22]

When you read “brothers” in the NT, you need to read the word in quotes because it has many, many meanings. Particularly in ancient (and very clannish) Jewish society, the sons of your aunts and uncles were your “brothers” as well.

And maybe because of the custom of if a man dies leaving no heirs… his brother is supposed to take his wife and have children in the name of the brother… do I have this correct?

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!

In the Old Testament there are references to the Angel of Yahweh which the Jehovah Witnesses, and others, interpret as an angel–they singularize the term and reject to take into consideration the content and the context. Hence my comment on this issue.

As far as your argument, I thought that you were attempting to claim that there’s only One God, as one Person (the Father), and that St. Justin Martyr was offering support to such belief.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Petra!

This goes back to the Promise and the inheritance. Females were basically silent… only the male children inherited land and other wealth. So it was necessary (don’t recall how it came to be issued as a mandate) that if a woman married into a family and her husband died before bringing forth an heir the eldest or unmarried brother (of age) had to marry/take her as his wife till she conceived. There was also a line of legitimacy where the next of kin could take the widow as his wife if there were no direct blood siblings left to marry the widow (Ruth):

1:11 And Naomi said, ‘You must return, my daughters; why come with me? Have I any more sons in my womb to make husbands for you?
1:12 Return my daughters, go, for I am too old now to marry again. Even if I said there is still hope for me, even if I were to have a husband this very night and bear sons, 1:13 would you be prepared to wait until they were grown up? Would you refuse to marry for this? No, my daughters, I should then be deeply grieved for you, for the hand of Yahweh has been raised against me.’
1:16 But Ruth said, ‘Do not press me to leave you and to turn back from your company, for ‘wherever you go, I will go, wherever you live, I will live.Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God.
2:4 Now Boaz, as it happened, had just come from Bethlehem. ‘Yahweh be with you!’ he said to the reapers. ‘Yahweh bless you!’ they replied.
2:8 Boaz said to Ruth, ‘Listen, my daughter, and understand this. You are not to glean in any other field, do not leave here but stay with my servants.
2:12 May Yahweh reward you for what you have done! May rich recompense be made to you by Yahweh, the God of Israel, to whom you have come, to find shelter beneath his wings.’
2:20 Then Naomi said to her daughter-in-law, ‘May he be blessed by Yahweh who does not withhold his kindness from living or dead! This man’ Naomi added ‘is a relative of ours. He is one of those who has the right of redemption over us.’
3:12 But, though it is true I have right of redemption over you, you have a kinsman closer than myself.
4:3 Then Boaz said to the man who had right of redemption, ‘Naomi, who has come back from the country of Moab, is selling the piece of land that belonged to our brother, Elimelech.
4:4 I thought I should tell you about this and say: Buy it in the presence of the men who are sitting here and in the presence of the elders of my people. If you want to use your right of redemption, redeem it; if you do not, tell me so and I shall know, for there is no one but you to redeem it except me, though I come after you, myself.’ And he said, ‘I am willing to redeem it’.
4:5 But Boaz continued, ‘On the day you purchase the land from Naomi, you purchase Ruth the Moabitess also, the wife of the dead man, and so restore his name to his inheritance’.
4:6 And the man with right of redemption said, ‘Then I cannot use my right of redemption, without jeopardising my own inheritance. As I cannot use my right of redemption, exercise the right yourself.’

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Now look at some of these verses:

1:16 But Ruth said, ‘Do not press me to leave you and to turn back from your company, for ‘wherever you go, I will go, wherever you live, I will live.Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God.

2:4 Now Boaz, as it happened, had just come from Bethlehem. ‘Yahweh be with you!’ he said to the reapers. ‘Yahweh bless you!’ they replied.

2:8 Boaz said to Ruth, ‘Listen, my daughter, and understand this. You are not to glean in any other field, do not leave here but stay with my servants.

2:12 May Yahweh reward you for what you have done! May rich recompense be made to you by Yahweh, the God of Israel, to whom you have come, to find shelter beneath his wings.’

2:20 Then Naomi said to her daughter-in-law, ‘May he be blessed by Yahweh who does not withhold his kindness from living or dead! This man’ Naomi added ‘is a relative of ours. He is one of those who has the right of redemption over us.’

Ruth fully accepted Yahweh, the God of Naomi as her God; Yahweh was Celebrated and Blessed by all who held a fervent Faith and everything that they did revolved around Yahweh, His Love and Mercy–even the hope of the dead–hence, the rescue of the inheritance of Naomi’s son, through the next of kin who would marry Ruth.

Consider too how Boaz refers to Ruth as “daughter” but she is not even of the blood lineage of Israel!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[gazelam]

gazelam:

This statement is in error. LDS believe Mary was a virgin before and after the birth of Jesus. I hope this helps…

“Mary was a virgin… until after the birth of our Lord. Then, for the first time, she was known by Joseph, her husband; and other children, both sons and daughters, were then born to her. (Matt. 13:55-56; Mark 6:3; Gal. 1:19.) She conceived and brought forth her Firstborn Son while yet a virgin because the Father of that child was an immortal personage.” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, vol. 1, p. 82)

I hope this helps . . .

It does. Thanks. Good to see McConkie reiterate that there was no sexual intercourse when Mary conceived. Take care.

 

[gazelam]

Mormon apostle, and grandfather of M. Russell Ballard wrote:

“One of the great questions that I have referred to that the world is concerned about, and is in confusion over, is as to whether or not his was a virgin birth, a birth wherein divine power interceded. Joseph Smith made it perfectly clear that Jesus Christ told the absolute truth, as did those who testify concerning him, the Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, wherein he is declared to be the very Son of God. And if God the Eternal Father is not the real Father of Jesus Christ, then are we in confusion; then is he not in reality the Son of God. But we declare that he is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh.

“Mary told the story most beautifully when she said that an angel of the Lord came to her and told her that she had found favor in the sight of God, and had come to be worthy of the fulfilment of the promises heretofore made, to become the virgin mother of the Redeemer of the world. She afterwards, referring to the event, said: ‘God hath done wonderful things unto me.’ ‘And the Holy Ghost came upon her,’ is the story, ‘and she came into the presence of the highest.’ No man or woman can live in mortality and survive the presence of the Highest except by the sustaining power of the Holy Ghost. So it came upon her to prepare her for admittance into the divine presence, and the power of the Highest, who is the Father, was present, and overshadowed her, and the holy Child that was born of her was called the Son of God.

Men who deny this, or who think that it degrades our Father, have no true conception of the sacredness of the most marvelous power with which God has endowed mortal men—the power of creation. Even though that power may be abused and may become a mere harp of pleasure to the wicked, nevertheless it is the most sacred and holy and divine function with which God has endowed man. Made holy, it is retained by the Father of us all, and in his exercise of that great and marvelous creative power and function, he did not debase himself, degrade himself, nor debauch his daughter. Thus Christ became the literal Son of a divine Father, and no one else was worthy to be his father.” (Deseret News, 23 Dec 1923; Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, 166-167; Crusader for Righteousness, 144; taught to students by BYU-Idaho professor Robert L. Marrott)

These quotes help too. None of them suggest that Mary had sexual intercourse to conceive Jesus. But they do confirm that Jesus is literal physical offspring of God the Father.

 

[gazelam]

He’s misquoting Justin Martyr. The Dialogue with Trypho is an excellent example of Trinitarian belief. It’s really quite an amazing work.

Regarding Justin Martyr, Edmund J. Fortman says the following:

On several occasions Justin coordinates the three persons, sometimes citing formulas derived from baptism and the eucharist, sometimes echoing official catechetical teaching. He worshipped the Father as Supreme in the universe; he worshipped the Logos or Son as divine but in the second place; he worshipped the Holy Spirit in the third place. But he has no real doctrine of the Trinity, for he says nothing of the relations of the three to one another and to the Godhead. (Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1972), 47

Looks like no Trinitarianism and a touch of Subordinationism in the writings of Justin Martyr…

 

[RebeccaJ]

Gazelem: Regarding Justin Martyr, Edmund J. Fortman says the following:

On several occasions Justin coordinates the three persons, sometimes citing formulas derived from baptism and the eucharist, sometimes echoing official catechetical teaching. He worshipped the Father as Supreme in the universe; he worshipped the Logos or Son as divine but in the second place; he worshipped the Holy Spirit in the third place. But he has no real doctrine of the Trinity, for he says nothing of the relations of the three to one another and to the Godhead. (Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1972), 47

Justin Martyr: I shall give you another testimony, my friends, from the Scriptures, that God begot before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. (“Dialogue With Trypho”, 61)