5th edition of the Program of Priestly Formation

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The newest edition of the Program of Priestly Formation has been promulgated. Just click on it here and be taken to the USCCB Vocations & Priestly Formation website.

I am reading though it as it will impact me.

There are a couple of things I find distressing.

They have up’ed the Philosophy requirements from 18 credit hours to 30 and have added 12 credit hours of Theology. These requriements are to enter the seminary.

I believe this is going to hurt many older vocations.

Also I have seen that many people here seem to think that the seminary cost should be taken care of for the seminarian but there is this statement from the document that will be of particular interest to those people. (underlined emphasis added)

58. In the admissions process, an evaluation should be made of a candidate’s indebtedness, his ability to handle finances (i.e., responsible record-keeping and payment of personal taxes), spending patterns, and a willingness to cover a portion of his seminary expenses. Candidates should demonstrate an aptitude for learning principles of good stewardship, avoiding any attitudes of entitlement. They should also show an openness to developing professional approaches to personal and church-related business matters.

I also find it interesting that it states in footnote 6 of the Preface that this is also binding up all Eastern Churches sui iuris in the United States.

 

[Unfinished]

They have up’ed the Philosophy requirements from 18 credit hours to 30 and have added 12 credit hours of Theology. These requriements are to enter the seminary.

I believe this is going to hurt many older vocations.

Yikes. It’s going to hurt a lot of younger ones too. 30 credit hours is two whole semesters of NOTHING BUT Philosophy courses. Considering you have to take some before others, unless they majored or minored in Philosophy, we are talking about three semesters, maybe four including the theology requirements, before you can even enter the seminary.

Granted, two years is not a long time when you become a priest for life, but to most people who are never 100% sure of these things in the first place, two years seems like a long time before they can even “try it out” to see if it is really thier calling.

I think they 18 hours was fine before, people should be taught the rest in the seminary envionment. Most of the calling comes from prayer and devotion, not studying philosophy. My personal thoughts are, men would be more willing if they are already in that envionment.

But those are just my thoughts.

 

[Caesar]

The newest edition of the Program of Priestly Formation has been promulgated. Just click on it here and be taken to the USCCB Vocations & Priestly Formation website.

I am reading though it as it will impact me.

There are a couple of things I find distressing.

They have up’ed the Philosophy requirements from 18 credit hours to 30 and have added 12 credit hours of Theology. These requriements are to enter the seminary.

I believe this is going to hurt many older vocations.

Also I have seen that many people here seem to think that the seminary cost should be taken care of for the seminarian but there is this statement from the document that will be of particular interest to those people. (underlined emphasis added)

58. In the admissions process, an evaluation should be made of a candidate’s indebtedness, his ability to handle finances (i.e., responsible record-keeping and payment of personal taxes), spending patterns, and a willingness to cover a portion of his seminary expenses. Candidates should demonstrate an aptitude for learning principles of good stewardship, avoiding any attitudes of entitlement. They should also show an openness to developing professional approaches to personal and church-related business matters.

I also find it interesting that it states in footnote 6 of the Preface that this is also binding up all Eastern Churches sui iuris in the United States.

Ouch. Does this affect religious orders too?

The seminary cost thing has me worried. I am willing to pay, but I dont exactly come from a well-to-do family that can afford this, and even if I did they would not pay for a seminary. And furthremore, many seminaries dont like you to be in debt- so that means the cost is to be covered in cash.

Already I figure that I will have to work for about 5-8 years after high school to pay for the seminary, and that is if I dont have to go to university first, in which case I would have to take out a government student loan to pay for uni, and then afterword work for about 10 years to pay off the loan and save up for seminary. The money issue is almost enough to prevent me from entering the priesthood.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Ouch. Does this affect religious orders too?

Yes it does.

From the document.

The Conference of Major Superiors of Men adopts the Program of Priestly Formation Fifth Edition as applicable to all religious seminaries in the United States.

The seminary cost thing has me worried. I am willing to pay, but I dont exactly come from a well-to-do family that can afford this, and even if I did they would not pay for a seminary. And furthremore, many seminaries dont like you to be in debt- so that means the cost is to be covered in cash.

Actually it has nothing to do with what the seminary likes. It is all what the bishop wants. Most bishops will not pay for your undergraduate degree so you must cover it with student loans. Many bishops cover the cost of the seminary and requrie that you pay back some of it after your ordination.

You also will work over the summer for the diocese.

Religious orders cover the seminary as you are already under simple vows when you start and will be under permanent vows before you are ordained. Some religious orders will also pay off your undergraduate student loans.

Already I figure that I will have to work for about 5-8 years after high school to pay for the seminary, and that is if I dont have to go to university first, in which case I would have to take out a government student loan to pay for uni, and then afterword work for about 10 years to pay off the loan and save up for seminary. The money issue is almost enough to prevent me from entering the priesthood.

Again, student loans are not a bar for the diocesan priesthood as they will be deferred until you finish the seminary. Talk with a vocations director. Or if you feel called to a religious order speak with them. Or talk to both.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Interesting.

This document is THE document in the United States for the formation of priests. I would have thought that there would be more discussion on it as it will impact any man and every man who is discerning a calling to the priesthood.

 

[Timmay]

Already I figure that I will have to work for about 5-8 years after high school to pay for the seminary, and that is if I dont have to go to university first, in which case I would have to take out a government student loan to pay for uni, and then afterword work for about 10 years to pay off the loan and save up for seminary. The money issue is almost enough to prevent me from entering the priesthood.

Hey there,

ByzCath summed it up nicely. I just wanted to echo a little of what he said and throw in some personal advice.

Before you make any decisions on whether to go work for the next 10 years to save for seminary, or to go to university on your own, or whatever… Go talk to the vocation director for whatever diocese or orders you’re looking into joining. They all have different policies, and they can help point you in the proper direction in regards to finances and education. You may be surprised at how much they’re able to work with you in this area.

And even afterwards, if together you decide you have to work for a year or two to pay for some of your education, continue meeting and working with them to stay on track. One of the worst things you can do is break that contact and do it alone. Even if you have the best of intentions to call them back two years later and get things moving again, the world and ‘real life’ have a scary way of creeping in and diverting you from your plans. It starts off with a year of working to pay for school. Then an unexpected expense or two (say car repairs or a medical or dental expense) creep in, so now you have to work longer and devote more time to your job, which turns your focus away from your discernment and vocation. Before you know it you’re being promoted to a higher position, which brings in more money (good) but requires more focus and dedication (bad). Next thing you know you’re 25 with a little bit of debt, and have a decent career going that you’re unhappy in because you know this is not what you’re called to do. (This is the ‘personal’ part of the advice I mentioned above ;-).

So keep meeting with them. Stay focused and on track. It’s way too easy for your plans to be diverted and your vocation pushed off longer and longer.

I’ll be praying for you.

Timmay!

 

[Timmay]

Interesting.

This document is THE document in the United States for the formation of priests. I would have thought that there would be more discussion on it as it will impact any man and every man who is discerning a calling to the priesthood.

Actually, I would love to comment, but I have not been able to sit down and read it all yet. Once I do I’ll gladly throw in my $.02.

Honestly, though, I’m not sure how much this will affect me… The order I am talking with has told me that chances are slim I would stay in the states for the seminary. They are talking about sending me to Italy or Germany. As a Missionary order, part of the experience and lifestyle is going to new places, learning a new language and adapting to a new culture. Our talks have not yet made it to where exactly I would go and what classes will be required.

Guess I’ll have to trust the Holy Spirit and cross that bridge when we get there.

Timmay!

 

[Caesar]

I live in Canada, but I want to join an order so I will probably end up in the US.

Timmay, which Missionary Order are you joining?

 

[Timmay]

I live in Canada, but I want to join an order so I will probably end up in the US.

You never know. It all depends on what order you join and where they send you. What types of orders are you looking at?

Timmay, which Missionary Order are you joining?

I’ve been talking with the Congregation of Missionaries of Mariannhill. They have a house here in the Detroit area (as well a a couple in Quebec; their only North American houses). A relatively young order working throughout Africa and Papua New Guinea.

If you had told me 10 years ago I would be looking into a missionary order, I would have thought you were nuts. But this order is full of good, Holy men that I have really connected with, doing hard work in parts of the world most people never think about (the work or the places).

mariannhill.org.

Thanks for asking.
Timmay!

 

[Caesar]

You never know. It all depends on what order you join and where they send you. What types of orders are you looking at?

I put out a general inquiry with a Vocations website over the summer, so I have been recieving many information packages from vocations directors all over North America.

Right now I am primarily looking at Traditional orders that celebrate the old Tridentine Mass. But I have always been interested in missionary priests, like the Columban Fathers.

I’ve been talking with the Congregation of Missionaries of Mariannhill. They have a house here in the Detroit area (as well a a couple in Quebec; their only North American houses). A relatively young order working throughout Africa and Papua New Guinea.

If you had told me 10 years ago I would be looking into a missionary order, I would have thought you were nuts. But this order is full of good, Holy men that I have really connected with, doing hard work in parts of the world most people never think about (the work or the places).

mariannhill.org.

Thanks for asking.
Timmay!

This is great! Good luck and God bless

 

[Timmay]

I put out a general inquiry with a Vocations website over the summer, so I have been recieving many information packages from vocations directors all over North America.

Right now I am primarily looking at Traditional orders that celebrate the old Tridentine Mass. But I have always been interested in missionary priests, like the Columban Fathers.

I remember doing that. I’m sure you’re receiving so much information from so many communities you don’t know what to do with most of them all. Good luck with that.

I’ve heard of the Columbans, but don’t know any. Missionary life is a challenging lifestyle, definitely not for everyone (still not sure if it’s for me). But those that do it tell me it’s the most rewarding work in the world.

This is great! Good luck and God bless

Thanks. Pray for me… I need it.

 

[Cory_Sticha]

The newest edition of the Program of Priestly Formation has been promulgated. Just click on it here and be taken to the USCCB Vocations & Priestly Formation website.

I am reading though it as it will impact me.

There are a couple of things I find distressing.

They have up’ed the Philosophy requirements from 18 credit hours to 30 and have added 12 credit hours of Theology. These requriements are to enter the seminary.

I believe this is going to hurt many older vocations.

If I remember correctly, this came down from Rome, it wasn’t something the US Bishops came up with. Because of this, the seminary I attend has increased its pre-Theology program from 1 year to 2 years, which is actually in line with what other seminaries throughout the country already had. For many who already have their degrees, this just means that they’ll have one more year of formation to (suffer) endure through.

Also I have seen that many people here seem to think that the seminary cost should be taken care of for the seminarian but there is this statement from the document that will be of particular interest to those people. (underlined emphasis added)

58. In the admissions process, an evaluation should be made of a candidate’s indebtedness, his ability to handle finances (i.e., responsible record-keeping and payment of personal taxes), spending patterns, and a willingness to cover a portion of his seminary expenses. Candidates should demonstrate an aptitude for learning principles of good stewardship, avoiding any attitudes of entitlement. They should also show an openness to developing professional approaches to personal and church-related business matters.

As far as I know, that doesn’t mean that the seminarian is going to be required to pay for much, if anything depending on the diocese. I think it’s there to keep out those who are looking for a free education from the Church. In my case, the diocese covers everything except personal needs (toiletries, auto insurance, etc.) and textbooks, but does give me a stipend to help with those expenses.

 

[Cory_Sticha]

Yikes. It’s going to hurt a lot of younger ones too. 30 credit hours is two whole semesters of NOTHING BUT Philosophy courses. Considering you have to take some before others, unless they majored or minored in Philosophy, we are talking about three semesters, maybe four including the theology requirements, before you can even enter the seminary.

Granted, two years is not a long time when you become a priest for life, but to most people who are never 100% sure of these things in the first place, two years seems like a long time before they can even “try it out” to see if it is really thier calling.

I think they 18 hours was fine before, people should be taught the rest in the seminary envionment. Most of the calling comes from prayer and devotion, not studying philosophy. My personal thoughts are, men would be more willing if they are already in that envionment.

But those are just my thoughts.

Most seminaries have a pre-Theology program, in which a seminarian can take the required philosophy and religious studies in the seminary environment. The seminarian would receive all 30 hours of philosophy and other required courses, along with formation, over the course of two years.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

If I remember correctly, this came down from Rome, it wasn’t something the US Bishops came up with. Because of this, the seminary I attend has increased its pre-Theology program from 1 year to 2 years, which is actually in line with what other seminaries throughout the country already had. For many who already have their degrees, this just means that they’ll have one more year of formation to (suffer) endure through.

This is true only for those who have bachelors degrees in Philosophy.

A man, especially a later vocation, who has a degree in anything else will requrie 2 years taking 12 credit semisters, or really 3.5 semisters as he will need 42 credit hours.

As far as I know, that doesn’t mean that the seminarian is going to be required to pay for much, if anything depending on the diocese. I think it’s there to keep out those who are looking for a free education from the Church. In my case, the diocese covers everything except personal needs (toiletries, auto insurance, etc.) and textbooks, but does give me a stipend to help with those expenses.

Yes, it depends on the diocese, the ones I spoke with require that a candidate be responsible for his undergraduate work and half of his seminary.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Most seminaries have a pre-Theology program, in which a seminarian can take the required philosophy and religious studies in the seminary environment. The seminarian would receive all 30 hours of philosophy and other required courses, along with formation, over the course of two years.

Yes, this is adding 2 years to a 4 year Masters degree program. So with people who have a preivious bachelors degree (mainly later vocations) that means the whole program will be 10 years. Medical doctors go to school for 8 years and they get a doctorate.

I question the validity of the MDiv and it being a 4 year Masters, a Masters in Theology is only 2 years and an MDiv does not get as much Theology as they do.

Yes, I know priests do more than theology but 4 years and only a Masters?

 

[Cory_Sticha]

Yes, this is adding 2 years to a 4 year Masters degree program. So with people who have a preivious bachelors degree (mainly later vocations) that means the whole program will be 10 years. Medical doctors go to school for 8 years and they get a doctorate.

It’s true that those who have previous degree end up having 10 years of schooling, but I think it’s a stretch saying that the whole program is 10 years. Studying at the seminary has a very different focus than studying at a typical college or graduate program. It’s a different way of studying and a different program from pretty much any other degree program.

I question the validity of the MDiv and it being a 4 year Masters, a Masters in Theology is only 2 years and an MDiv does not get as much Theology as they do.

Yes, I know priests do more than theology but 4 years and only a Masters?

Admittedly the MDiv is pretty much a worthless degree. Obviously, the point of seminary isn’t to get a degree, otherwise we’d be receiving something more marketable, like Masters in Theology, but the bishops wanted to make sure we got something to show that we’d completed seminary studies. The reason it takes four years to complete the MDiv is to allow for a minimum of four years of formation before ordination.

This is one case where the longer, the better, IMHO. 8 years seemed like a long time when I entered college seminary, but now I’m grateful for the time that I’ve been required to put in, as it’s 8 years of preparation for the priesthood. God willing, I will be better able to serve God and His people due to this time of prayer, formation, study, spiritual direction, etc.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Admittedly the MDiv is pretty much a worthless degree. Obviously, the point of seminary isn’t to get a degree, otherwise we’d be receiving something more marketable, like Masters in Theology, but the bishops wanted to make sure we got something to show that we’d completed seminary studies. The reason it takes four years to complete the MDiv is to allow for a minimum of four years of formation before ordination.

Ah but now with the new philosophy and theology requriement most men have to to a two year pre-theology so the formation is 6 years, not just 4.

And then I know of some dioceses that add a pastoral year that comes before ordination to the diaconate. That is that one does two years in the seminary, the next year is done as a pastoral year in a parish ministry, then you return for year three and four at the seminary. So for those guys it can be 7 years.

If all the bishops want is a 4 (or more) year formation they could work it out.

This is one case where the longer, the better, IMHO. 8 years seemed like a long time when I entered college seminary, but now I’m grateful for the time that I’ve been required to put in, as it’s 8 years of preparation for the priesthood. God willing, I will be better able to serve God and His people due to this time of prayer, formation, study, spiritual direction, etc.

We in religious orders have a longer formation than the secular priesthood.

I am in, what the Carmelites call, the pre-novitiate (really its just a postulancy). I am finishing out my bachelors degree as all I have is an associates degree (I am a late vocation). This usually is just a year but with the new requriements it may increase in time. Then there is the novitiate, two year internship, then the theologate.

So for guys with bachelors degrees this is a 8 year formation, for me it will be closer to 9.

I have no problem with that because this is a religious order and there is a great difference in the formation. I just don’t see increaseing the time for the secular priesthood.

The requriements just call for 30 credit hours of philosophy, it does not state what kind of philosophy. You could end up with 30 credit hours in philosophy that will do nothing to help you along in theological studies. Like relativism and much of monder philosophy. Or you could have a bunch of courses in the historical track which does not really teach you to use it.

But, oh well, it is something that we must live with.