5th Marian Dogma

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BTW,

Co- … in this context means she was “WITH” Jesus when all these things happened. it does NOT mean she is equal to Jesus (as many would think initially).
 
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ByzCath:
If its always been taught then why a new Dogma?
I’m not sure that calling Mary - Coredemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate - needs to be a DOGMA. It is already understood and part of the teachings of the Catholic Church. It will not enhance thr Church or strenthen the Church.

This does no disservice to Mary. She is my Coredemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate. I am very devoted to her and the more I learn the more I love her. But remember, Mary wants us all - always to love her Son. That is our end focus - no matter what we call Mary.

So I don’t believe it is necessary.

God Bless,
Donna
 
+Ave Maria

Absolutely I think this dogma should be proclaimed! Even though Mary was without sin she suffered and suffering is a product of original sin. So she suffered for us just as Christ (who was also sinless) suffered on the Cross.

Mediatrix of all graces absolutely she already said her self that is the full of grace and since we are not! Can she not through her intersession bring down even more grace that we can since she is Full of Grace.
 
I would be interested in hearing why this needs to be done.
I believe in one God…
The cardinals are getting perilously close to a ‘two god’ religion.

This would be an absolute heresy.

As one of your writers said: do we need this dogma?
I don’t think so.
 
One thing that some of you may not have thought of with respect to our dialogs with n-Cs is that the definition of these terms by the Church will actually help us by allowing us to cite the documents defining them and in so doing clarify what is already misunderstood.

I think this may be what the various Cardinals and Bishops are asking for.

Properly understood, I have no problem with these titles, but it’s a pain to have to repeatedly discuss and explain them.

Anti-Catholics will persist in their rhetorical diatribes against our most holy faith regardless because it suits their agenda and will serve to help them inflame the emotions of their people, who generally will not study these issues for themselves anyway, but accept what they are told. 🤷

Overall, such a definition cannot hurt.
 
I believe in one God…
The cardinals are getting perilously close to a ‘two god’ religion.

This would be an absolute heresy.
I disagree, and your comment is precisely why that definition would be a help to us all.
As one of your writers said: do we
need this dogma?
I don’t think so.What “we”?! Your profile says “Christian” which I take to mean “non-Catholic”, so, as I pointed out above, a dogmatic definition of these terms and titles can only help to clarify things and help prevent even guys like you who have theological M.A.s from making comments like the one I have quoted above.
 
Your writer takes it that “Christian means Non-Catholic”.
Is this another new Dogma?
 
Your writer takes it that “Christian means Non-Catholic”.
Is this another new Dogma?
I don’t know…you tell me.

It very often seems to be a non-Catholic dogma that is expressed to us even here at CAF.

It is not a dogma of the Catholic Church.

My point is that all too often non-Catholics effectively hide their doctrinal sources behind the generic term Christian when in fact they are active members of some all too identifiable faith community.

My thinking…if you’re Assembly of God, Church of Christ, Southern Baptist, or Seventh Day Adventist (or Calvary Chapel, or Shepherd’s Chapel), then say so.

Just as with this Marian dogma, let’s clarify what we talk about and where we are coming from with our thinking. 🤷
 
Should the teaching of Mary as Coredemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate be defined as Dogma?

“No” to each title, & “no” to all three taken together (you don’t allow people to vote for the titles separately, which is a pity).​

 
This kind of thinking bothers me tremendously, it is not Our Lady’s place or prerogative to express extra favor for those who honor her with titles.

Our Lady is supposed by us to be sinless, this would be a crass example of pride, the first sin.

She would not show favoritism, her first inclination would be to do the Will of God and none other. She would deflect the praises and honors and humbly point directly toward her son.

Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.

+T+
Michael, that sinner

That’s a very good point - there seems at times to be an assumption that the BVM is like a vain lady who needs to be re-assured that she is not losing her looks. Aging beauties have their faces “done up”, the BVM gets the same result by having another title given her. That reassures the neurotic old thing that she still matters, & hasn’t yet faded. This is uncomfortably earthly behaviour.​

This is not the Mary of the Gospel. It’s the Blessed Virgin of the more decadent sort of Mediterranean piety, the sort who is angered by not having yet another church built in her honour. This kind of piety is pagan to the core - with a sprinkling of Christianity on top. It is the old attitude of do ut des: I give my god some worship, he returns the favour by giving me more cattle or more children or success in love or whatever it may be that’s asked. If he doesn’t oblige - I worship a god who does. That is not the Righteous God of the best parts of the OT, or the Gracious God of the NT - it’s a regression to a lower form of religion.

If she is any kind of Christian at all, what could be more important to her than to fulfil the Will of the Father ? “Me - me - me” cannot be the language of Heaven; that’s how
we sinners behave, not how Christ did. And the more Christian the sinner, the less they want their will done.
 
I think using ‘should’ is misleading.

The Church is not a democracy (of course the U.S. isn’t a democracy either. It’s a republic. But I digress).

IF the Holy Spirit leads the Church into a dogmatic declaration, we must realize two things:
  1. There is no such thing as a ‘new’ dogma. Dogma is more fully interpreted; it isn’t ‘made up.’
  2. Since that is the case, there is no ‘should’ about it. Either this dogma is truth (which as Catholics we are bound to hold as true then) or it isn’t. . .in which case the Church will never proclaim it, being guarded by the charism of infallibility. It would be like the ‘Arian heresy’–millions might embrace it or believe it or call for it–but it will never wind up being taught, and will be recognized as heresy, just as Arianism was.
So why even bother? If it is a true teaching, it will be revealed, and it will be taught.

If not. . .no matter how much noise or discussion or ‘should we’ goes on. . .it won’t.
 
Calling Mary Coredemptrix does not include making her divine or that she died for our sins.

It implies both the Divinity of Mary & her Atoning Death. Not to mention her Infinite Merits: it cannot be true unless she is God. And some people think she is. 😦

Redemption cannot be the work of two - & the idea makes a mockery of the Biblical type of Christ the Redeemer in Isa. 63 (repeated with additions in Rev. 19). In those texts, He is blood-spattered from treading the “wine-press of the wrath of God” - Mary never did that. She is not holy enough, gracious enough. If she cannot look sin in the face & suffer the full alienation of man from God, she may be a beneficiary of the Death of Christ, but she cannot in any sense be a redeemer or mediator. She may be on our side - but Jesus Christ our Glorious & Unique Redeemer is on His Father’s side and on ours, wholly, fully, equally, “simultaneously”. The notion of co-redemption eats away at all the Glory & Work & Teaching of Christ - it says His Redeeming work is divided with another, & her a mere creature. A divided Mediator implies a divided Christ - & what good is such a Christ to us ? None, that’s how much.
Yes, Christ is our sole mediator–of Justice. Mary is a mediator of grace. Perfectly sound theology.

Then He is not our sole mediator, & St. Paul was ludicrously mistaken - for he did not know He has a colleague. And one who can make up for the deficiencies in His Work; who, even worse, is better than He. The blasphemy of this is beyond words. It falsifies the NT teaching on the mediation of Christ, by giving a mere mortal what is possible to Him alone. He is either Our Mediator in every respect - or He is not Our Mediator at all. There is no possibility of compromise here.​

Since there are two mediators, & not one - despite St.Paul’s assertion to the contrary - it follows that the Bible contains a doctrinal error; & a serious one. This collides with the dogma of total Biblical inerrancy. Such confusion is inevotable when a lie is introduced into Chuirch teaching

This division of the Mediation of Christ is not Biblical - it’s a 10th century idea, of Eastern origin; the West could have done without it 😦 Its only justification is that it teaches men - has taught them - that Christ is an angry Judge from Whom they should flee, that they may find protection from Him by appealing to the mercy of His mother. This is a denial of the infinite Mercy of Christ, an exaltation to parity with Him of a mere creature, & a denial of the NT: it is not a Christian idea.

Mary has, can have, could have, no grace whatever if Her Creator were not the Gracious Author of all grace. It is Christ Who is the Source of all grace in the Church, for He is the Head of it. Mary is not, cannot be, gracious in the slightest, except as a grace: a totally free Divine gift to which she has & can have not the faintest shadow of any claim at all. So the foundation of this “two kingdoms” theory (as it is known in its more familiar form) - the kingdom of justice, & the kingdom of grace - is rotten. To divide the kingdom of Christ is anti-Biblical, anti-Christian, & anti-Catholic. An error a thousand years old does not become a truth merely by being old.
Yes, God has already elevated her and does not need us to acomplish what God has already done, but that does not mean we cannot formally acknowledge true aspects of that elevation. The Church is not throwing darts at a board and making this stuff up out of thin air.

Scott
 
From what I’ve read of it, I see no harm. However, some Catholics believe that the Second Vatican Council abolished Latin and destroyed the altars against the wall. This goes to show that it’s hard to educate everyone what /actually/ is decided upon.

The core thing to remember about all of the Marian dogma is that God could’ve saved he world in any manner he wanted to. As such Mary wasn’t just a necessary inconvenience but a true and integral part of the Plan of Salvation and that any role she had was purely God’s prerogative.

She was the mother that bore the Living Word of God in her womb, she brought ‘the Way, the Light, and the Truth’ into the world, all by the Will of our Heavenly Father.

She did not initiate redemption; she facilitated it in an intimate way, well beyond anything any other human ever has. God choose her to help give life to the Lamb of God. Without having human life, He could not have human death.

At least that’s what I’ve understood of it.
 
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