5th Marian Dogma

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StrawberryJam said:
I need to start a thread asking if the pope needs to consult the Bishops prior to making any decision that would effect all the faithful though Micheal, no offense. I don’t do this because I don’t trust your word on this, but because I think it needs to be opened up for discussion amoung catholics no matter what the answer is in the end.

I hope you understand I am not doing it because I don’t trust you.

I just am the type that can’t seem to believe things easily.🤷
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That’s OK.

It should be fun 🙂 Ask each respondent to link their references (relevant canons, etc).

Try posting it in the Traditionalist section and the Eastern Catholic section, each with a poll that reveals who is responding. I would be interested to read the responses myself.

Michael
 
Hesychios said:
That’s OK.

It should be fun 🙂 Ask each respondent to link their references (relevant canons, etc).

Try posting it in the Traditionalist section and the Eastern Catholic section, each with a poll that reveals who is responding. I would be interested to read the responses myself.

Michael
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Never did a poll. Good idea. Thank you for the insight on this Michael.🙂
 
StrawberryJam said:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=397411

I am asking for clarity on apologetics so that more people will see it, and feel free to argue
their position there.
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I did not see this before I posted.

My connection here is slow.

This should be fine, I was going to suggest the apologetics section, but I think multiple threads on the same subject is a no-no, so even two is pushing it.

The reason I suggested the two forums is because I have noticed some ambiquity in these matters among Catholics and one will sometimes find a different perspective depending upon which group consensus is appealed to.
 
Hesychios said:
I did not see this before I posted.

My connection here is slow.

This should be fine, I was going to suggest the apologetics section, but I think multiple threads on the same subject is a no-no, so even two is pushing it.

The reason I suggested the two forums is because I have noticed some ambiquity in these matters among Catholics and one will sometimes find a different perspective depending upon which group consensus is appealed to.
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You too huh?😃

I have had the same problem.:eek:
 
Hiskid1973 said:
I don’t understand why we even need Marian dogmas…I don’t even understand why we even need to define a co-redeemer…I know my redeemer lives…There’s plenty enough in the scriptures for me to hide in my heart to keep me from sin…And for me to study to show my self approved rightly dividing His word…
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The reason for the dogmas is given by Pope Paul II in Ad Tuendam Fidem (1998):

“TO PROTECT THE FAITH of the Catholic Church against errors arising from certain members of the Christian faithful, especially from among those dedicated to the various disciplines of sacred theology, … norms which expressly impose the obligation of upholding truths proposed in a definitive way by the Magisterium of the Church, and which also establish related canonical sanctions.”

And the two sets of Canon Laws (Latin and Eastern) are nearly identical:

Code of Canon Law (1983)
Canon 750
  1. Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn Magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal Magisterium, which in fact is manifested by the common adherence of Christ’s faithful under the guidance of the sacred Magisterium. All are therefore bound to avoid any contrary doctrines.
  2. Furthermore, each and everything set forth definitively by the Magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be firmly accepted and held; namely those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, anyone who rejects propositions which are to be held definitively sets himself against the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches (1990)
Canon 598
  1. Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn Magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal Magisterium, which in fact is manifested by the common adherence of Christ’s faithful under the guidance of the sacred Magisterium. All Christian faithful are therefore bound to avoid any contrary doctrines.
  2. Furthermore, each and everything set forth definitively by the Magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be firmly accepted and held; namely, those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, anyone who rejects propositions which are to be held definitively sets himself against the teaching of the Catholic Church.
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ADTU.HTM
 
StrawberryJam said:
This is part of the magnetizing effect of studying the catholic faith I find hard to stop studying. It is like an onion, with so many layers to it.
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And as you continue peeling you’ll finding that the onion has more layers than you started out with. :eek:

Anyway, glad to see your continued interest and I pray that as your knowledge grows, faith will eventually follow. 😃 It gets harder the more you delve in, but mostly it’s because of ourselves who get in the way of true understanding. May you continue to keep an open heart.
Hesychios said:
I think it is worth exploring just what is actually meant by Mediatrix of ALL graces, from a Latin Catholic point of view.
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Wouldn’t this be best served in a thread of its own?

As I pointed out to Strawberry with this article:
  • Mary is the “dispensatrix of all the gifts and is the ‘neck’ connecting the head of the mystical body to the members. But all power flows through the neck” (Ad Diem Illum 13).
As Eve was mother of the living in the natural order, so Mary is the Mother of the living in the order of grace… A mother “mediates” life to her children; Mary mediates spiritual life—grace—to every Christian.

Jesus did not “use” Mary to come into the world. She really is his Mother. And she remains his Mother. As she gave birth to the “head” of the body of Christ, so she gives birth to the members of the body of Christ. She is the Mother of the whole Christ.*
Just as we received Christ through her, we receive graces through her but she is not the source. I would think it unfair to hijack the original poster’s question with a new subject though. If you make a new post, please link or PM it. 🙂
 
Vico said:
The reason for the dogmas is given…
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Unfortunately, I cannot see any reason given for the expression of new dogmas.

There must be some nuance I just am not getting. Can you be more specific?

Thanks
 
Liraco said:
As Eve was mother of the living in the natural order, so Mary is the Mother of the living in the order of grace… A mother “mediates” life to her children; Mary mediates spiritual life—grace—to every Christian.
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But how? How exaxtly does a creature of God do this… what are the mechanics?

For instance
The Indwelling of the Trinity
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In order to correct the notion that grace is limited simply to occasional divine assistance, it may be helpful to consider the doctrine of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and thereby the Trinity.
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More…
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What does Saint Mary do, consciously or not, to effect an Indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a person or persons? Where is she in all that… does she serve as a figurative pipeline or ladle to pour the Holy Spirit in?

Can she control the Holy Spirit? Can she determine of her own will to deny this aspect (or person) of God to anyone? Can she send the Holy Spirit anywhere He does not wish to go?​

Separately:
What of the graces that come through the Holy Eucharist… can she stop them? Can she enhance them?
Liraco said:
Jesus did not “use” Mary to come into the world. She really is his Mother. And she remains his Mother. As she gave birth to the “head” of the body of Christ, so she gives birth to the members of the body of Christ. She is the Mother of the whole Christ.
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[/INDENT]
Just as we received Christ through her, we receive graces through her but she is not the source. I would think it unfair to hijack the original poster’s question with a new subject though. If you make a new post, please link or PM it. 🙂 I do not see this as a new subject.

The subject is the 5th Marian dogma (As far as I was aware, there are actually only two proclaimed, but we are discussing number five. If the Fifth Marian dogma is not Mediatrix of ALL Graces kindly tell me which one it is.)

What exactly is the function of a Mediatrix of ALL Graces?

Is it just a fancy title?
 
Hesychios said:
Unfortunately, I cannot see any reason given for the expression of new dogmas.

There must be some nuance I just am not getting. Can you be more specific?

Thanks
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Well, the general reason for all dogmas, according to Ad Tuendam Fidem, is “To protect the faith of the Catholic Church against errors”.

A dogma is a revealed truth. Some dogmas must be believed as a means to salvation and others only by precept.

When the Assumption dogma was declared in 1950 by H.H. Pope Pius XII in Munificentissimus Deus (item 42), this was written about the importance of that Marian dogma:

“It is to be hoped that all the faithful will be stirred up to a stronger piety toward their heavenly Mother, and that the souls of all those who glory in the Christian name may be moved by the desire of sharing in the unity of Jesus Christ’s Mystical Body and of increasing their love for her who shows her motherly heart to all the members of this august body. And so we may hope that those who meditate upon the glorious example Mary offers us may be more and more convinced of the value of a human life entirely devoted to carrying out the heavenly Father’s will and to bringing good to others. Thus, while the illusory teachings of materialism and the corruption of morals that follows from these teachings threaten to extinguish the light of virtue and to ruin the lives of men by exciting discord among them, in this magnificent way all may see clearly to what a lofty goal our bodies and souls are destined. Finally it is our hope that belief in Mary’s bodily Assumption into heaven will make our belief in our own resurrection stronger and render it more effective.”
 
lil_flower_luv said:
Well, if you want to get technical, I’d say the moment He called Her Mother…but I think this is what you’re looking for:
ewtn.com/library/MARY/coredemedadv.HTM
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Thanks, I read the link looking for scripture…It seemed more of mans thoughts…I can see where the concept came from but I leery when thoughts of men become doctrine and dogma.
I trust what they original apostles wrote, but beyond that I have concern…peace to you
 
Hiskid1973 said:
Thanks, I read the link looking for scripture…It seemed more of mans thoughts…I can see where the concept came from but I leery when thoughts of men become doctrine and dogma.
I trust what they original apostles wrote, but beyond that I have concern…peace to you
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If a person cannot except Marian Dogma then I just don’t understand any other place she has in the Church. God chose her as His Mother. I don’t question it; neither should you. To not give her the honor she deserves is to say she has no reason to be part of Church History…of Jesus coming to this earth as a man. It’s all or nothing with Mary IMO.
 
Vico said:
Well, the general reason for all dogmas, according to Ad Tuendam Fidem, is “To protect the faith of the Catholic Church against errors”.

A dogma is a revealed truth. Some dogmas must be believed as a means to salvation and others only by precept.
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Perhaps we are just talking passed one another here.

My question was about proclaiming new dogmas, not about the received Faith.

"Unfortunately, I cannot see any reason given for the expression of new dogmas."

For instance, it is certifiably not a dogma now, everyone seems to agree on this point… so why make a dogma we have never had before?
 
lil_flower_luv said:
If a person cannot except Marian Dogma then I just don’t understand any other place she has in the Church. God chose her as His Mother. I don’t question it; neither should you. To not give her the honor she deserves is to say she has no reason to be part of Church History…of Jesus coming to this earth as a man.
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I am with you up to this point…

http://www.iconsexplained.com/iec/lib/02573_theotokos_and_child_nebojsa_djurasovic.jpg
The Holy Theotokos
lil_flower_luv said:
It’s all or nothing with Mary IMO.
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This does not make any sense, at least not to me.

I relation to your statement here: “It’s all or nothing with Mary”, can you please answer my question about grace?

What does Saint Mary do, consciously or not, to effect an Indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a person or persons? Where is she in all that… ?

In other words, if the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a Grace (according to the Latin Catholic church), how does Saint Mary mediate this?

If you have another definition of this particular grace [Indwelling of the Holy Spirit] according to your church’s teaching feel free to share that with us. Perhaps it is not, after all, a grace in the sense you mean.
 
Hesychios said:
OK.

How?

Or more specifically… please list all the graces of Christ so that we can discuss ow these come through her.

Thanks
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Christ did not say, “Behold, your Mother” for no reason. What does a mother do? She does whatever she can for the good of her children. This is an easy way to understand Mary’s role as Mediatrix. Her faith, her holiness, her humbleness, her love. Her role in the Church is to bring her children closer to Jesus. He works through her. In this way, all He brings to us, He brings to us through her.

God Bless
Therese
 
lil_flower_luv said:
If a person cannot except Marian Dogma then I just don’t understand any other place she has in the Church. God chose her as His Mother. I don’t question it; neither should you. To not give her the honor she deserves is to say she has no reason to be part of Church History…of Jesus coming to this earth as a man. It’s all or nothing with Mary IMO.
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I have no problem giving Mary or any other saint honor in the scriptures…She was blessed among women…But her soul magnified the Lord…She is a great example of the faith and my sister in Christ…But I don’t try to contact her…It’s all about Jesus, He is my focus…For me the scriptures contain all I need to find Christ and mature in the faith…What scares me is how people go crazy over sightings, rust or water stains…Reminds me abut end times and what Jesus said in Matt 24 about people saying Jesus was sighted here and there, He said belive it not…peace to you
 
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