5th Marian Dogma

[SingleMomMonica]

Heard on Catholic Radio last night that this “5 Marian Dogma” that **Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces **is NOT a new dogma and that it has been believed since the beginning of the Church.

Apparently there is a petition which either has or will be sent to Pope Benedict with millions of signatures requesting him to make an Infallible Statement on this dogma.

Two questions for Catholics I have are:

1. If it’s been believed and taught since the beginning of the Church, then why would it need to be officially declared as dogma in an Infallible Statement by the Pope?
2. If it’s been believed and taught since the beginning of the Church, then why don’t we see it referenced anywhere in Church History & Tradition?

The Bible was silent about it, the Councils were silent about it and the Fathers were silent about it.

The question I have for Protestants is:

1. If the Pope declares this as Dogma in an Infallible Statement, will it make you more or less likely to become a Catholic?

The question I have for Orthodox Christians is:

1. If the Pope declares t his as Dogma in an Infallible Statement, will it speed up or slow down any progress made towards the reunification of Rome with the Orthodox Churches?

The question I have for Non-Christians is this:

1. If the Pope were to declare it - would it impact your thoughts on the Catholic Church in anyway?

 

[SSTeacher]

The question I have for Orthodox Christians is:

1. If the Pope declares this as Dogma in an Infallible Statement, will it speed up or slow down any progress made towards the reunification of Rome with the Orthodox Churches?

Slow it down to a stop.

Definitely,
Mick

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Slow it down to a stop.

Definitely,
Mick

I suspected as much.

Would you please explain why it would slow it down to a stop?

 

[firstmode]

As a protestant it would just hurt my growth towards Catholic Ideas. I am already leaning in agreement towards Orthodox ideas much more, this would just put it over the top.

They would make is something that every Catholic HAS to believe or they are in Mortal sin?

 

[John_Larocque]

A reminder to everybody here who doens’t know. The main proponents of declaring this a dogma are also advocates for a banned private revelation. Those advocating it should be ignored.

I found this persuasive:

catholicplanet.com/CMA/not-fifth-not-final.htm

The claim that these three titles for Mary constitute the fifth Marian dogma is based on the assertion that only four Marian dogmas are currently found within the teaching of the Magisterium. These four Marian dogmas are usually listed as in quote 8 above: 1) Immaculate Conception, 2) Assumption, 3) Mother of God (Theotokos), 4) Perpetual Virginity (ever-virgin). Now certainly each of these teachings has been taught by the Church infallibly.

However, the claim that there are only four dogmas (with the proposed dogma counting as fifth) is based on a very narrow definition of what constitutes a Dogma. Dr. Mark Miravalle asserts in quote 5 above that a teaching is not a dogma, even if it has been infallibly taught by the Universal Magisterium, unless it has been solemnly defined under Papal Infallibility or by an Ecumenical Council. But there are a number of problems with this restrictive definition of the term ‘dogma.’

First, the Marian dogma which teaches that Mary is ever-virgin, in other words, that her virginity is perpetual, was never defined under Papal Infallibility, nor by an Ecumenical Council. There is no solemn definition which specifically and infallibly teaches that Mary is ever-virgin. Now this teaching is certainly a teaching of the infallible ordinary and universal Magisterium, and so the doctrine itself is indisputable. But under the narrow definition of the term dogma used by supporters of the Vox Populi position, there would only be three current Marian dogmas, and their proposed dogma would be fourth, not fifth.

Fundamental Marian doctrines which have been taught by the Universal Magisterium include Mary’s perpetual sinlessness, her role as Mother of the Church, her role as Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and her Queenship in Heaven. Therefore, in my theological opinion, the current number of Marian dogmas, using a definition of the term dogma which includes all fundamental doctrines about the Virgin Mary that have been taught by the Magisterium infallibly is as follows:

1. Mary’s Immaculate Conception
2. Mary’s Perpetual Virginity
3. Mary’s Perpetual Sinlessness
4. Mary as Mother of God
5. Mary as Spouse of the Holy Spirit
6. Mary’s participation in the sufferings of Christ
7. Mary as Mother of the Church
8. Mary’s Assumption to Heaven
9. Mary’s Queenship in Heaven

Therefore, there are today at least nine Marian dogmas, using a definition of the term dogma which includes all fundamental doctrines found in Divine Revelation and infallibly taught by the Magisterium. Since a more restrictive use of the term dogma would result in a count of only three Marian dogmas, the claim that the dogma proposed by Vox Populi is (or will be if defined soon) the fifth Marian dogma is a false and unsupportable claim.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

As a protestant it would just hurt my growth towards Catholic Ideas. I am already leaning in agreement towards Orthodox ideas much more, this would just put it over the top.

They would make is something that every Catholic HAS to believe or they are in Mortal sin?

Now, I’m not saying that the Catholic Radio Show I heard was infallible on the subject, but according to them this is already a dogma within the Catholic Church and yes all dogmas must be believed as they are the Faith’s essentials.

I wonder if it’s talked about in the CCC or not. I’ll check it when I get home tonight unless someone else has access to view it now.

(on the Vatican’s website, it doesn’t have available that section in the back allowing you to find if a Topic is there and if so the page #)

If it is Dogma and a Catholic fails to believe it, I don’t know if it would be considered Mortal Sin or not, but it would definitely make someone a “cafeteria Catholic” - a label no one wants if they are trying to be faithful to Christ, His teachings and His Church.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5879552:

Slow it down to a stop.

Definitely,
Mick

I suspected as much.

Would you please explain why it would slow it down to a stop?

In my opinion, the role of the papacy is the central question that has to be resolved between East and West. Only Catholics believe in papal infallibility and if it weren’t a compulsory belief for Catholics I’d conjecture that many of them would view it in exactly the same way that non–Catholics generally do.

It seems to me that if the pope were at this point to promulgate any doctrine ex–cathedra – particularly one that came to attention as a direct result of a petition signed by a minority of Catholics – and thus impose it upon every Catholic in the world as something that must necessarily be believed, I doubt that anybody, whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, would conclude that he was even slightly interested in reconciliation.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[SingleMomMonica]

In my opinion, the role of the papacy is the central question that has to be resolved between East and West. Only Catholics believe in papal infallibility and if it weren’t a compulsory belief for Catholics I’d conjecture that many of them would view it in exactly the same way that non–Catholics generally do.

It seems to me that if the pope were at this point to promulgate any doctrine ex–cathedra – particularly one that came to attention as a direct result of a petition signed by a minority of Catholics – and thus impose it upon every Catholic in the world as something that must necessarily be believed, I doubt that anybody, whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, would conclude that he was even slightly interested in reconciliation.

Cordially,
Mick

Thanks!

What really gets me is that the claim is that this 5th Marian Dogma has been taught by the Church from the beginning and that Orthodox or Protestant would be required to believe it too, if they wanted to be a Catholic. I’ve never seen it any where in any of the ECF that I’ve read (not that I’ve read them all). The whole thing just seems wierd.

 

[Nine_Two]

I think such a move by the pope would only serve to give uneducated protestants fodder to throw at Catholics.

I’m not sure any of the Orthodox Churches would particularly care.

 

[AshleyBelle]

What is it about the fifth marian dogma that the Church does not already believe?

 

[dzheremi]

Heard on Catholic Radio last night that this “5 Marian Dogma” that **Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces **is NOT a new dogma and that it has been believed since the beginning of the Church.

This is the first I’ve heard of that. Was it believed always and everywhere, or is there some quote-mining involved in this assertion?

Apparently there is a petition which either has or will be sent to Pope Benedict with millions of signatures requesting him to make an Infallible Statement on this dogma.

I can’t think of a real sophisticated way to say this, so…umm…BOOOOOOOOO! Thumbs down to that!

Two questions for Catholics I have are:

1. If it’s been believed and taught since the beginning of the Church, then why would it need to be officially declared as dogma in an Infallible Statement by the Pope?

What I was told in RCIA, which I have come to realize was either a mis-statement or worse, is that dogma is declared in opposition to some heresy against what had already been believed prior to the emergence of said heresy. This seems compatible with the creeds or any of the various other measures taken to protect Christian orthodoxy, but not so much with this drive to declare another Marian dogma that, frankly, there is more than enough dissention over to leave undeclared, if not to outwardly reject as a matter of policy (I don’t feel the need to attempt to enforce my understanding of this idea on others, unlike the people who have circulated that petition; let it be a private matter, why don’t we?).

1. If it’s been believed and taught since the beginning of the Church, then why don’t we see it referenced anywhere in Church History & Tradition?

The Bible was silent about it, the Councils were silent about it and the Fathers were silent about it.

I don’t believe it has been. This is something I’ve noticed about Catholic theology: The propensity to argue for things that CAN be argued for based on one or another reading of the scriptures or the ECF greatly outweights the propensity to argue for those things that MUST be argued for. In fact, I’m not sure many in the Church see the division anymore.

 

[SSTeacher]

What really gets me is the claim that this 5th Marian Dogma has been taught by the Church from the beginning…

But isn’t such a claim entirely predictable? On what other basis could the pope promulgate something as infallible other than that it had been true from the beginning?

Discerningly,
Mick

 

[bookgirl32]

Now, I’m not saying that the Catholic Radio Show I heard was infallible on the subject, but according to them this is already a dogma within the Catholic Church and yes all dogmas must be believed as they are the Faith’s essentials.

It is not dogmatically defined. As all it refers to is Mary’s role in salvation history (agreeing to give birth to and be Jesus’ mother), the Magesterium has no problem with the title. This is how I understand it anyway. From what I’ve read I don’t think it will be dogmatically defined.

 

[bookgirl32]

I think such a move by the pope would only serve to give uneducated protestants fodder to throw at Catholics.

I’m not sure any of the Orthodox Churches would particularly care.

This is kind of what I thought. Dogmatically defining the title doesn’t really do anything, which is why I don’t think it will be defined. It’s really a matter of wording, as all it refers to is the fact that Mary played a role in all of salvation history in agreeing to do what she did. The fact that she did this is already dogma (Mother of God) so I don’t see the point in making the title a dogma.

 

[Reuben_J]

Heard on Catholic Radio last night that this “5 Marian Dogma” that **Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces **is NOT a new dogma and that it has been believed since the beginning of the Church.

Apparently there is a petition which either has or will be sent to Pope Benedict with millions of signatures requesting him to make an Infallible Statement on this dogma.

Two questions for Catholics I have are:

1. If it’s been believed and taught since the beginning of the Church, then why would it need to be officially declared as dogma in an Infallible Statement by the Pope?
2. If it’s been believed and taught since the beginning of the Church, then why don’t we see it referenced anywhere in Church History & Tradition?

The Bible was silent about it, the Councils were silent about it and the Fathers were silent about it.

The question I have for Protestants is:

1. If the Pope declares this as Dogma in an Infallible Statement, will it make you more or less likely to become a Catholic?

The question I have for Orthodox Christians is:

1. If the Pope declares t his as Dogma in an Infallible Statement, will it speed up or slow down any progress made towards the reunification of Rome with the Orthodox Churches?

The question I have for Non-Christians is this:

1. If the Pope were to declare it - would it impact your thoughts on the Catholic Church in anyway?

With due respect, SMM, you are participating along with the speculation.

The Church will not made something into a dogma because the faithfuls petition for it.

Infallible statement when made is not to introduce new belief but to reconfirm existing belief that’s why its infalliblity is not a problem. It is necessary for example to counter heresy of the day and the Church needs to reaffirm her stand.

God bless.

 

[bookgirl32]

What I was told in RCIA, which I have come to realize was either a mis-statement or worse, is that dogma is declared in opposition to some heresy against what had already been believed prior to the emergence of said heresy.

This is true. Which is why I believe that it won’t be. What is meant by the title is already held in established Marian dogma. I’m not saying it’s redundant, it’s just another way of saying something. Basically what I’m saying is that defining it as a dogma isn’t necessary.

If I’m wrong though, someone please correct me.

 

[bookgirl32]

The Church will not made something into a dogma because the faithfuls petition for it.

God bless.

This was going to be my other point, thanks for beating me to it .

 

[Janet1983]

The question I have for Protestants is:

1. If the Pope declares this as Dogma in an Infallible Statement, will it make you more or less likely to become a Catholic?

It would make it less likely for me to become a revert… somewhere along with other “dogmas” about Mary like the “perpetual virginity”, the “immaculate conception” and the “assumption”.

 

[jimmy]

The question I have for Orthodox Christians is:

1. If the Pope declares t his as Dogma in an Infallible Statement, will it speed up or slow down any progress made towards the reunification of Rome with the Orthodox Churches?

I am not Orthodox but I will give an answer anyway. I read an article a couple years back by Bishop Kalistos Ware on this question. He said essentially that if Rome were to define the mediatrix of all Graces it would end all ecumenical dialogue and there would be no chance of communion between Catholics and Orthodox.

 

[Janet1983]

I wonder if it’s talked about in the CCC or not. I’ll check it when I get home tonight unless someone else has access to view it now.

#969 p. 252
I found it in the index under Mary, mediatrix of grace…

CCC:

969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

There is a reference after this part, but I don’t know what “LG 62” means… If I was to try a wild guess I’d say “Lumen Gentium” though… that’s all I remember that would fit the letters “LG”…

Here is Lumen Gentium 62:

1. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until The eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.

For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.