5th Marian Dogma

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This is kind of what I thought. Dogmatically defining the title doesn’t really do anything, which is why I don’t think it will be defined. It’s really a matter of wording, as all it refers to is the fact that Mary played a role in all of salvation history in agreeing to do what she did. The fact that she did this is already dogma (Mother of God) so I don’t see the point in making the title a dogma.
I disagree. Many recent popes spoke of Mary as being a mediary through which all Grace passes now that she is in heaven. It is through Mary that Christ works and only through Mary. That is the essence of the concept of the Mediatrix of all Graces. It is not limited to the birth of Christ and Mary’s acceptance of the will of God.

The Orthodox might use a term like ‘mediatrix of all grace’ or something of similar effect but it remains a matter of piety. If the pope were to define it, it would become de fide. This idea of defining dogma is foreign to the Orthodox. They are wary of dogmatic definitions. If it doesn’t have any relation to their soteriology then they do not support it. If it doesn’t pertain to the living of the faith then it is meaningless. So consequently they oppose the definitions of the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption even though they might celebrate the Assumption. It is a matter of piety (even if you are expected to accept it). So to define something like mediatrix of all graces would be very problematic for the Orthodox.

I will try to find the Kalistos Ware article I refered to above.
 
Here is the Bishop Ware article.

cs.ust.hk/faculty/dimitris/metro/aug01/AUG01.html#ORTHOVIEW

No New Dogmas Please

As a child, a friend of mine used to be told by his nanny: “Before you say anything, ask yourself: Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?” The same three questions may well be asked about the current proposal to define Mary as Co-Redeemer.
Is it true? The answer to that question depends on the way in which we interpret the title “Co-Redeemer”, along with the related titles “Mediator of All Graces” and “Advocate of the People of God”. As a member of the Orthodox Church I have no objection to these three titles in themselves – provided that they are rightly understood.
Indeed, closely similar language occurs in the prayers and hymns used in the Christian East. With the greatest frequency in Orthodox worship we say to the Virgin Mary, “Most Holy Mother of God, save us”. In our invocations to other members of the Communion of Saints, including St John the Baptist, except on very rare occasions we never say more than “. . . pray for us”.
http://www.cs.ust.hk/faculty/dimitris/metro/aug01/off_cross.gifThis is not an isolated example. In the preparation before the beginning of the Divine Liturgy we address Mary in parallel terms: “Open to us the door of compassion, blessed Mother of God; setting our hope in you, may we not go astray; through you may we be delivered from distress; for you are the salvation of the Christian people.” Our evening prayers include the petition, “All my hope I put in you, Mother of God: guard me under your protection”. And at the end of the highly popular Paraklisis or Service of Intercession to the Theotokos (Mother of God) we sing, “Queen of the world, become our mediator” (mesitria).
Such language is not new. It has been used by Eastern Christians for many centuries, and scarcely ever has it given rise to scandal or controversy. The phrases are thoroughly traditional, just as the titles which the Pope is now being asked to endorse have a long history in the Latin West.
But precisely how are all these titles and invocations to be understood? Since Jesus Christ is the only Saviour and the “one Mediator between God and humankind” (1 Tim. 2:5), how can we speak of Mary in this way?
Here we may take as our guideline the striking words of St Paul (or one of his disciples) in Colossians 1:24: “I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing that which is lacking in Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his Body, that is, the Church.” What is meant by the paradoxical phrase “that which is lacking”? How can anything be lacking in Christ’s all-sufficient sacrifice upon the Cross, performed once for all time?
Yes, indeed: the sacrifice of the Cross – never for one moment to be sundered in our thinking from the resurrection – is altogether complete and unrepeatable. Yet at the same time through our own self-offering – through our own suffering and our martyrdom, inner or outward – we the baptised make up “that which is lacking” in Christ’s suffering: we bear witness to his perfect sacrifice and we make it ever present in a bewildered and broken world. In this sense all the members of the Body are co-redeemers with Christ.
Mary, however, is Co-Redeemer in a particular and outstanding way; for, as Mother of the Saviour, she is involved with a unique nearness in her son’s work of salvation. There is, then, a special appropriateness in calling her the Co-Redeemer par excellence, so long as we never forget that she and we share the same vocation. We too are called, in union with her, to “complete that which is lacking in Christ’s afflictions”.
So much for nanny’s first question, “Is it true?” Yes, it is, if understood in terms of Colossians 1:24. But is it kind? Is it ecumenically helpful? Alas! Any definition concerning Mary as Co-Redeemer and Mediator, however carefully hedged about by theological qualifications, will inevitably give rise to misunderstanding. And this is likely to happen especially among those Christians who in the past were alienated by devotion to Mary, but who are today beginning, hesitantly and cautiously, to discover in her – to use Tina Beattie’s words in The Tablet for 20 September 1997 – “a unique person able to identify with the deepest delights, griefs and aspirations of people across ages, cultures and classes”. Is it kind to snuff out so many candles that are just beginning to flicker?
If it is not kind, is it necessary? Ockham’s razor needs to be used when formulating doctrine: dogmas, like other entities, should not be multiplied without reason. Let us keep obligatory definitions to a minimum, whether concerning the Virgin Mary or anything else.
When in 1950 Pope Pius XII issued a formal definition concerning the bodily assumption of the Mother of God, the response of almost all Orthodox Christians was immediate and unambiguous. “This is something that we have long believed”, they said. “It is plainly affirmed in our private devotion and our liturgical worship. But we see no need for any definition.”

[Continued]
 
From apostolic times, Christ’s birth, death and resurrection were openly made known in the Church’s public preaching, proclaimed from the housetops for all the world to hear. But the mystery of his Mother forms part of the Church’s inner, secret tradition, that is revealed only through prayer and doxology to those inside the Church. In the words of the Russian theologian Vladimir Lossky: “It is not so much an object of faith as a foundation of our hope, a fruit of faith, ripened in tradition. Let us therefore keep silence, and let us not try to dogmatise about the supreme glory of the Mother of God.”
That was how we Orthodox reacted in 1950 to the papal definition of the Assumption. And if today, half a century later, there were to be a further papal definition about Mary as Co-Redeemer, our reaction would probably be exactly the same: let us keep silence, and let us not dogmatise.
Roman Catholics have long honoured Mary with the title “Co-Redeemer”, and doubtless they will continue to do so. By the same token, we Orthodox will continue to address Our Lady with the time-honoured invocation, “Most Holy Mother of God, save us”. For both of our traditions, she is a life-giving fountain of hope, joy and love. But, alike in East and West, let us refrain from promulgating “Marian” dogmas. It will not help the cause of Christian reconciliation, and it is not necessary.

Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia, or Kallistos Ware as he is more commonly known, published extensively on subjects related to the Orthodox Church The Orthodox Church, The Orthodox Way,How we are saved, translated in English The Lenten Triodion and Philokalia, etc. The present article originally apeared in The Tablet,UK, on 17 January 1998.
 
Another mountain for me to climb 😦
I really doubt that it will ever be defined within the Catholic Church because nothing good will come of it. It is only a theological opinion of some theologians now. Some popes have supported it but that doesn’t make it a dogma.
 
I am not Orthodox but I will give an answer anyway. I read an article a couple years back by Bishop Kalistos Ware on this question. He said essentially that if Rome were to define the mediatrix of all Graces it would end all ecumenical dialogue and there would be no chance of communion between Catholics and Orthodox.
In fairness, and with no desire to contradict Bishop Kalistos, a man much greater in faith then I, in more recent years he has worked tirelessly to maintain dialogue with the Anglican Communion despite far greater breaches of doctrine. It might set us back a bit (a lot), but I don’t think it would be the end of it.
 
From apostolic times, Christ’s birth, death and resurrection were openly made known in the Church’s public preaching, proclaimed from the housetops for all the world to hear. But the mystery of his Mother forms part of the Church’s inner, secret tradition, that is revealed only through prayer and doxology to those inside the Church. In the words of the Russian theologian Vladimir Lossky: “It is not so much an object of faith as a foundation of our hope, a fruit of faith, ripened in tradition. Let us therefore keep silence, and let us not try to dogmatise about the supreme glory of the Mother of God.”
That was how we Orthodox reacted in 1950 to the papal definition of the Assumption. And if today, half a century later, there were to be a further papal definition about Mary as Co-Redeemer, our reaction would probably be exactly the same: let us keep silence, and let us not dogmatise.
Roman Catholics have long honoured Mary with the title “Co-Redeemer”, and doubtless they will continue to do so. By the same token, we Orthodox will continue to address Our Lady with the time-honoured invocation, “Most Holy Mother of God, save us”. For both of our traditions, she is a life-giving fountain of hope, joy and love. But, alike in East and West, let us refrain from promulgating “Marian” dogmas. It will not help the cause of Christian reconciliation, and it is not necessary.

Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia, or Kallistos Ware as he is more commonly known, published extensively on subjects related to the Orthodox Church The Orthodox Church, The Orthodox Way,How we are saved, translated in English The Lenten Triodion and Philokalia, etc. The present article originally apeared in The Tablet,UK, on 17 January 1998.
We are obligated to believe revealed truths irrespective of their definition by the Church, but the proposals and definitions of these truths as dogmas serve to maintain a unity of faith among all the faithful.

It’s understandable that the schismatic bishops of the Orthodox Church are offended by the promulgation of dogmas, since they reject the authentic central apostolic teaching authority of the Catholic Church.

Here’s what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say about Dogma:
www.newadvent.org/cathen/05089a.htm.

PAX :heaven:
 
We are obligated to believe revealed truths irrespective of their definition by the Church,
Then why bother defining?
but the proposals and definitions of these truths as dogmas serve to maintain a unity of faith among all the faithful.
I don’t think any Orthodox Christian is offended by it. It sadens us, but it does not offend us any more than than Lutheran offend you. What we do find offensive though, is pride.
 
I guess I just don’t understand why so many are upset over this… And for several reasons.

First… I can’t find anything in the understanding of the “fifth marian dogma” that goes against what the Church believes about Mary, her role in our salvation, and her model for us of being truly and completely conformed to Christ.

Secondly, the message of Mary as mediatrix and co-redemptrix may very well be a message we all need during this time. It’s a reminder of just how intimately and wholely we are united to Christ. That not only is He our savior, but that through Him, with Him and in Him, we share in all that He is and all He has done. We participate in His work of redemption by sharing in His cross. Mary has so much to teach us about this beautiful mystery of the faith, and with all the recent miracles (lourdes, fatima, etc…) it is clear that she WANTS to teach us dearly.

If the Church does go ahead and “officially” declare this beautiful teaching about our blessed mother as dogma, it would be adding nothing new to the faith… but perhaps re-emphasizing a message that is for our spiritual benefit. God would not allow anything to be fomally declared if it was not His will to teach us something important about our faith nd knowledge of Him.

The Church isn’t concerned about what the world think of the Truth… and we shouldn’t be afraid to teach the faith just because some portions of it are “hard to chew” for others who don’t believe in any type of devotion to Mary, no matter what the theology behind it.
Code:
The Church should be bold in teaching the Truth to a world that has turned away, and God has shown time and again He wants to give us His mother so that we might turn more closely to her Son.
Anyway these are just my personal thoughts on the subject. I trust God to lead His Church, and if it is His will to formally define an already held understanding of His mother so that we can better understand our relationship to Chist, then He knows best.
 
SingleMomMonica;5879491:
Apparently there is a petition which either has or will be sent to Pope Benedict with millions of signatures requesting him to make an Infallible Statement on this dogma.
The Church will not made something into a dogma because the faithfuls petition for it.
Makes one wonder if there actually is a petition. Or, if there is, what perusal of the small print might reveal. 🙂

Doubtfully,
Mick
👍
 
I guess I just don’t understand why so many are upset over this… And for several reasons.

First… I can’t find anything in the understanding of the “fifth marian dogma” that goes against what the Church believes about Mary, her role in our salvation, and her model for us of being truly and completely conformed to Christ.

Secondly, the message of Mary as mediatrix and co-redemptrix may very well be a message we all need during this time. It’s a reminder of just how intimately and wholely we are united to Christ. That not only is He our savior, but that through Him, with Him and in Him, we share in all that He is and all He has done. We participate in His work of redemption by sharing in His cross. Mary has so much to teach us about this beautiful mystery of the faith, and with all the recent miracles (lourdes, fatima, etc…) it is clear that she WANTS to teach us dearly.

If the Church does go ahead and “officially” declare this beautiful teaching about our blessed mother as dogma, it would be adding nothing new to the faith… but perhaps re-emphasizing a message that is for our spiritual benefit. God would not allow anything to be fomally declared if it was not His will to teach us something important about our faith nd knowledge of Him.

The Church isn’t concerned about what the world thinks of the Truth… and we shouldn’t be afraid to teach the faith just because some portions of it are “hard to chew” for others who don’t believe in any type of devotion to Mary, no matter what the theology behind it.
Code:
The Church should be bold in teaching the Truth to a world that has turned away, and God has shown time and again He wants to give us His mother so that we might turn more closely to her Son.
Anyway these are just my personal thoughts on the subject. I trust God to lead His Church, and if it is His will to formally define an already held understanding of His mother so that we can better understand our relationship to Chist, then He knows best.
:amen:
 
It would make it less likely for me to become a revert… somewhere along with other “dogmas” about Mary like the “perpetual virginity”, the “immaculate conception” and the “assumption”.
Fine. We wish to be a church of true believers. :coffeeread:
 
Fine. We wish to be a church of true believers. :coffeeread:
Your condescending attitude doesn’t help matters. You don’t help people to understand when you have this attitude.

Regarding your other post; the Orthodox wouldn’t accept that mediatrix of all grace is a revealed truth. It is an abstraction from other western theology.

The Orthodox would probably question you about what is the meaning of dogma. If mediatrix of all graces has become a dogma, what is the purpose of dogma? Is it simply an intellectual assent to a fact of history? If so, what does that historical reality have to do with the Church now? The Orthodox see the history of doctrine in relation to soteriology. St. Athanasius said to the Arians, if Christ is not God then how can He make us gods. St. Gregory Nazianzen defended the Trinity against the Eunomians precisely through the ascetical life. St. Cyril of Alexandria attacked the arguements of Nestorius in a similar manner as St. Athanasius did against the Arians. Essentially for the Orthodox, dogma is the guide to the spiritual life. Theology and spirituality are united, and can not be seperated. Without a relationship with the ascetical life or the spiritual life a doctrine is superfluous and will remain just a theologoumenon or a pious tradition (which you still might be expected to accept even if it isn’t dogma).
 
Maryism is just plain wrong.

Grace allows our sins to be forgiven. That is why Jesus suffered.
 
The teaching of Mary as co-redemtrix used to leave me completely baffled. But now it makes perfect sense to me, properly understood. Just as Eve was a “co-faller”, so too the new Eve is a co-redemtrix. Mary’s role is a lesser, dependent role to Jesus’, but real nonetheless. All part of God’s plan.

In these articles, Cardinal Newman presents compelling arguments as to why Mary should be considered the “New Eve”:
christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/newman1.html
christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/newman2.html

Mary as Mediator of all Graces is the only Marian teaching (including Dogmas and other Marian teachings) that I don’t get. I have no problem believing that she is a mediator of grace. We are all mediators of grace to a small extent when we pray for one another. Of course, this isn’t to be confused with Jesus’ special and prime mediation that He alone has due to his being God and man, our High Priest, etc. I can even understand that Mary’s mediation is special amongst God’s creatures. It makes sense that the mother of God who is the “Queen-mother” of the Davidic kingdom, is a special mediator. I just don’t understand why we would believe that she is the mediatrix of ALL grace. It could be true, but what evidence do we have? Maybe somebody could provide some good arguments in favor of the proposed dogma.
Either way, I’m not worried. I believe in the Church’s infallibility, so if it isn’t true, it won’t get defined.
 
I really doubt that it will ever be defined within the Catholic Church because nothing good will come of it. It is only a theological opinion of some theologians now. Some popes have supported it but that doesn’t make it a dogma.
The invocation of Mary as Mediatrix of Grace, co-Redemptrix, and Advocatrix (Advocata) are infallible teachings of the ordinary magisterium, not merely private theological opinions of certain theologians or popes, and belong of the deposit of faith - Scripture and Tradition - and the Sacred Liturgy.

Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul ll, 25 March 1987.
Signum Magnum, Pope Paul Vl, 13 May, 1967.
Ad Caeli Reginam, Pope Pius Xll, 11 October 1954.
Octobri Mense, Pope Leo Xlll, 22 September 1891

PAX :harp:
 
Then why bother defining?
Clarification and decisiveness. You seem to misunderstand what Catholics believe about Mary’s unique and highly privileged role in the divine order of redemption.
How does someone believing that it is through Mary alone that salvation comes maintain unity? Indeed I think we would all find that quite heretical, and yet by defining doctrine you open that doctrine up to interpretation. Let it be.
See what I mean? A definition would help you see what Catholics truly believe about Mary. Heresy and disunity are the results of the private interpretation of Scripture by individuals who have no apostolic authority and mandate to authentically preach the Gospel.
I don’t think any Orthodox Christian is offended by it. It sadens us, but it does not offend us any more than than Lutherans offend you. What we do find offensive though, is pride.
And as they passed through the cities, they handed on to the people for observance the decisions ( decrees=dogmata) reached by the apostles and the presbyters in Jerusalem.
Acts 16, 4 [NAB]


It may have been pride that influenced the schismatic Catholic bishops of the 11th century.

PAX :harp:
 
Clarification and decisiveness. You seem to misunderstand what Catholics believe about Mary’s unique and highly privileged role in the divine order of redemption.
Not at all, I know what what Catholics believe. However unnecessarily defining things opens up more room for misinterpretation.
See what I mean? A definition would help you see what Catholics truly believe about Mary. Heresy and disunity are the results of the private interpretation of Scripture by individuals who have no apostolic authority and mandate to authentically preach the Gospel.
I’m not saying that’s what I think you believe, I’m saying that what you’re saying may be interpretted by someone as meaning that, leading this person into heresy. It doesn’t help.
And as they passed through the cities, they handed on to the people for observance the decisions ( decrees=dogmata) reached by the apostles and the presbyters in Jerusalem.
Acts 16, 4 [NAB]
It may have been pride that influenced the schismatic Catholic bishops of the 11th century.
Quite, although we probably disagree on who those bishops were. This really has nothing to do with anything though.
 
The ordinary magisterium is not infallible.

This essay is interesting…
catholicplanet.com/CMA/heresy-infallibility.htm

Do you guys get all your talking points from the heresiarchs at Vox Populi?
The ordinary magisterium is non-infallible. And individual popes may err in their teachings, but not to a grave extent. Yet what is commonly taught by a succession of popes in a non-infallible (not strictly fallible) individual public capacity, of the idea that Mary is a powerful intercessor in heaven or that she had a vital secondary causative role to play in the order of redemption, is an infallible truth based on Scripture and Tradition and celebrated in the Sacred Liturgy.

By the way, I don’t subscribe to Vox Populi.

PAX :heaven:
 
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