5th Marian Dogma

[SingleMomMonica]

It really seems at the heart of this thread, the issue is not a matter of what we believe about Mary. The issue is more centered around papal infallibility and the primacy of Peter… Naturally no matter what doctrine was under consideration, those who already reject the hoy father’s authority would be opposed.

No, the issue on this thread is how it would affect Catholics, Protestants & Orthodox Christian’s view of the Catholic Church and their relationship with the Catholic Church & whether or not the 5th Marian Dogma is true.

You brought up the fact that it is only through Church Councils that have the authority to give decrees. To dig deeper on that issue, you may begin another thread.

 

[SSTeacher]

1. If the Pope declares this as Dogma in an Infallible Statement, will it make you more or less likely to become a Catholic?

As this has not been infallible defined by the Church, it is a doctrine, not a dogma. The petitioners calling it dogma do not make it so as they do not speak ex cathedra. If this was a dogma, then it would have to be accepted with faith, whether one agreed or not, based solely on its infallible nature. Therefore, there would be no need to declare something infallibly that was already considered to be infallibly declared. Since this petition exists, then we can know it is not yet a dogma.

I’d still like to have a shuftie at that petition, though.

Wistfully,
Mick

 

[SingleMomMonica]

I’d still like to have a shuftie at that petition, though.

Wistfully,
Mick

fifthmariandogma.com/index.php?option=com_form&Itemid=602

 

[AshleyBelle]

Your point is that at a single point in time Mary accepted Christ into her womb and that was how God chose to come to live among us - this is true.

But what the 5th Marian Dogma is saying is that God only gives His Grace (His Divine Energies) to Mary - only to Mary. That Mary then passes those graces necessary for salvation onto us.

This means that Christ died for only Mary and that Mary chose to share those Graces of Salvation with us.

If this were true, which it’s not, then Christ would Not have been able to heal anyone on earth because it’s only Mary’s role to share God’s Graces with the rest of humanity. But Christ did directly heal people on earth, Christ did forgive people their sins!

You apparently are in agreement that ALL Graces come to the human race from Mary, because Mary receives those Graces through the 1 Mediator of God and Man, Jesus.

Yet, what this means there is no point to pray to the Father, Son & Holy Spirit because only Mary can give us the Grace we so desperately need!

That is not in agreement with the teachings of the Church from the beginning. The Church has always taught that we **should **pray to Mary: Most Holy Mother of God Save Us. But has never taught that only Mary can save us. The difference is HUGE.

We seem to be talking past each other… because your explanations are not at all how I have understood the theology of Mary as Co-redemptrix and mediatrix of all graces. I’m not sure how you tdraw the conclusion that because Mary “chose” to share Christ with the world, tha Christ “only died for Mary.” As far as I understand, it would clarify that we DO believe we are saved only by Christ. How often on these boards and elsewhere are Catholics accused of being “universalists” because we recognize God’s power to save those of other faiths, yet through Christ whether they know Him or not? And in such conversations, Catholics are generally told we’re lying or “speaking out of both sides of our mouths” about salvation coming only by Christ.
To re-emphasize that all grace comes only through Mary, would show that we recognize the saving grace of Christ alone… the son of Mary. He came so that all might be saved through Him, and He was brought into the world with the obedient “yes” of our blessed Mother.
Maybe you can help me understand how that translates into your interpretation that we are only saved “by” Mary, or that Jesus only came to save Mary, because I honestly cannot see it. If your interpretation is indeed what the theological idea was tyring to express, I’d likely be in agreement with you… But I have every confidence that if t means as you say,it would never become dogma. God would not allow His Church to teach contrary to the faith.
Also… it may help to note, than whenever I encounter a marian teaching or devotion I don’t immediately understand… I try to think of it in terms of Mary’s role as our model for the faith. If she is the mediatrix of all graces, then this is a model of what we are called to be, correct? That we should be vessels of grace, sharing Christ with the world? And if she is “co redemptrix” then we also are called to cooperate in Christ’s redemption, rather than taking a passive role in our salvation.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Another thought that came to mind after I clicked “post” was this:

Do we not also believe that anything Mary "dis because she is carrying out the perfect will of the Father?  If any grace flows through her, it is because God willed it as such.  I see a false dichotomy in saying that "grace only comes through Mary" as though it were somehow excluding the Father or the Son.  This is a common accusation across CAF, that we turn to Mary "instead" of Jesus, or that we exclude Him from our devotion when we venerate His mother.  When in fact, any true devotion to Mary will always point to Christ.

I guess I just hesitate to interpret a theological idea to automatically imply something contrary to Church teaching, and rather try to understand it through the lens of what I already believe and understand about Tradition.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

If she is the mediatrix of all graces, then this is a model of what we are called to be, correct? That we should be vessels of grace, sharing Christ with the world?

Although, if we believed that Mary was the Mediatrix of ALL Grace, then there is no way possible to be able to model her since there would be no way that we could in turn share that Grace with someone else because ONLY Mary could give the Grace.

This doctrine/dogma is not that Mary is a Mediatrix of Grace - which hopefully everyone agrees with - but it’s that Mary is the Mediatrix of ALL Grace, this means that Grace could not come to you from Jesus, Grace could not come to you from the Holy Spirit, Grace could not come to you from your priest, Grace could not come to you from any other source than Mary only.

We are all called to be mediators of God’s grace to others, but no one, not even the Most Holy Mother of God is a Mediatrix of ALL of God’s Grace.

And if she is “co redemptrix” then we also are called to cooperate in Christ’s redemption, rather than taking a passive role in our salvation.

I don’t think that anyone would disagree with refering to the Theotokos as “co redemptrix” because she did cooperate with God in such a profound way which resulted in the possibility of our theosis.

I do think that everyone would and should disagree if you or anyone else tried to claim that Mary is the “SOLE redemptrix”

 

[Nine_Two]

Another thought that came to mind after I clicked “post” was this:

Do we not also believe that anything Mary "dis because she is carrying out the perfect will of the Father?  If any grace flows through her, it is because God willed it as such.  I see a false dichotomy in saying that "grace only comes through Mary" as though it were somehow excluding the Father or the Son.  This is a common accusation across CAF, that we turn to Mary "instead" of Jesus, or that we exclude Him from our devotion when we venerate His mother.  When in fact, any true devotion to Mary will always point to Christ.

I guess I just hesitate to interpret a theological idea to automatically imply something contrary to Church teaching, and rather try to understand it through the lens of what I already believe and understand about Tradition.

While what you say is true, so to should every doctrine and dogma regarding Mary point to Christ. Saying all Graces come through her does not.

 

[AshleyBelle]

While what you say is true, so to should every doctrine and dogma regarding Mary point to Christ. Saying all Graces come through her does not.

Is there such a thing as grace apart from Christ?

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5882971:

I’d still like to have a shuftie at that petition, though.

Wistfully,
Mick

fifthmariandogma.com/index.php?option=com_form&Itemid=602

SingleMomMonica,

Thanks, ever so much. I’m sorry, I’ve not been paying attention – you already posted the content of the petition plus the actual website address in Post # 51. Subsequently, John Larocque declared (Post #56) that the website was run by heretics and adherents of a fraudulent Marian apparition.

Appreciatively,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Yep, right on target, FifthMarianDogma/Vox Populi is a website run by heretics and adherents of a fraudulent Marian apparition.

What’s the criteria used to differentiate between a fraudulent Marian apparition and a non–fraudulent one?

Curiously,
Mick

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Is there such a thing as grace apart from Christ?

Do you not realize what it is you are defending. Saying that Mary is the Mediatrix of ALL Grace is saying that All Grace comes to us apart from Christ.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

What’s the criteria used to differentiate between a fraudulent Marian apparition and a non–fraudulent one?

Curiously,
Mick

I think it’s the local bishop who either confirms an apparitions authenticity, denies it’s authenticity or remains silent leaving it up to the people whether or not to accept the messages of a particular apparition.

Even if it’s authenticity is confirmed by the bishop (the Catholic Church), it is still left to each Catholic to decide whether or not they want to believe it. Catholics have freedom in that.

 

[SSTeacher]

I think it’s the local bishop who either confirms an apparitions authenticity, denies it’s authenticity or remains silent leaving it up to the people whether or not to accept the messages of a particular apparition.

Even if it’s authenticity is confirmed by the bishop (the Catholic Church), it is still left to each Catholic to decide whether or not they want to believe it. Catholics have freedom in that.

That sounds about right. It’s the “freedom to believe” part that I wanted to confirm. Thanks.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[jimmy]

Do you not realize what it is you are defending. Saying that Mary is the Mediatrix of ALL Grace is saying that All Grace comes to us apart from Christ.

It doesn’t say that. What it does posit is a heirarchical view to redemption. Grace comes from Christ through Mary to us. Mary is the direct actor in the process and Christ’s action is more remote, but it still comes from Christ.

 

[bookgirl32]

You are right that Mary had a huge role in the salvation history, but that is NOT what this dogma is all about.

The dogma, as described on Catholic Radio, is that every single Grace from the beginning of the world to eternity is given by God soley to Mary and that Mary dispenses the Grace to the rest of humanity.

If this has truly been taught from the beginning, please show me where.

I was getting it mixed up with co-redemptrix, sorry!!

 

[bookgirl32]

This means that Christ died for only Mary and that Mary chose to share those Graces of Salvation with us.

.

Wait a minute wait a minute. This is your understanding of this title. Please quote something, infallible or not, from the Church that interprets the title in the way you do above.

Yes, after looking it up some it does appear that “mediator of all graces” would point to all graces passing through the hands of Mary. But saying that Mary chose anything is claiming that Mary’s will is different that God’s. Her will is perfectly aligned with God’s. All of the same arguments defending the Church’s Marian dogma would apply to this one. Again, I dont’ think it will be defined as I dont’ think it would really change anything.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Do you not realize what it is you are defending. Saying that Mary is the Mediatrix of ALL Grace is saying that All Grace comes to us apart from Christ.

   If the petition really is pushing for the Church to say that all grace comes to us apart from Christ then, of course I disagree with the petition. I guess my point is that I don't personally understand how saying Mary is the "mediatrix of all grace" excludes Christ, and our role as co-mediators?

My main point, though… is that I trust God to keep His Church from error, and that if a dogma is formally defined, it would only help to understand our faith; not detract from or go against it.
I just really hesitate to dismiss these titles too hastily, if there is even the potential for them being formally declared. I’d rather seek to understand them in light of what the Church already teaches… admitedly there is so much I don’t understand! I’ve also just perhaps had a few too many run-ins with well meaning Christians who have wanted to tell Catholics we worship Mary
I haven’t looked at the websites linked, so maybe there is something I’m missing. But I’ve yet to hear “co-mediatrix” and “co-redemptrix” explained as though they somehow excluded or detracted from Christ, except from posters on the internet who argue about most of the Marian dogmas regardless. So my apologies if there’s something in this conversation I’ve overlooked.

 

[AshleyBelle]

It doesn’t say that. What it does posit is a heirarchical view to redemption. Grace comes from Christ through Mary to us. Mary is the direct actor in the process and Christ’s action is more remote, but it still comes from Christ.

Wait a minute wait a minute. This is your understanding of this title. Please quote something, infallible or not, from the Church that interprets the title in the way you do above.

Yes, after looking it up some it does appear that “mediator of all graces” would point to all graces passing through the hands of Mary. But saying that Mary chose anything is claiming that Mary’s will is different that God’s. Her will is perfectly aligned with God’s. All of the same arguments defending the Church’s Marian dogma would apply to this one. Again, I dont’ think it will be defined as I dont’ think it would really change anything.

Thank you, you both put my own thoughts much more succintly

 

[bookgirl32]

Another thought that came to mind after I clicked “post” was this:

Do we not also believe that anything Mary "dis because she is carrying out the perfect will of the Father?  If any grace flows through her, it is because God willed it as such.  I see a false dichotomy in saying that "grace only comes through Mary" as though it were somehow excluding the Father or the Son.  This is a common accusation across CAF, that we turn to Mary "instead" of Jesus, or that we exclude Him from our devotion when we venerate His mother.  When in fact, any true devotion to Mary will always point to Christ.

I guess I just hesitate to interpret a theological idea to automatically imply something contrary to Church teaching, and rather try to understand it through the lens of what I already believe and understand about Tradition.

This is exactly what I’m saying. It’s no different than arguing the point of praying the Hail Mary or the Rosary. I don’t think the petitioners are going to get anything accomplished (nor should they, the Church doesn’t work that way). But if your problem with the concept itself is that it’s making everything point to Mary instead of Christ, then all other Marian dogma is also doing the same. Neither of which really is though if you take into consideration that, 1)this is the way God chose to do it and 2)her will is perfectly aligned with His. So nothing that God does not want to happen, happens.

Again, I don’t think it will be defined, but if you look at Mary as the new Eve, and that all sin is passed onto humans through Eve, it would be a logical conclusion that all graces are passed on to humans through Mary. This is not saying that the “control” is somehow being taken from God, nor that Mary is being put above her “station”. It would simply be the way God chose to put the plan in motion.

 

[bookgirl32]

Do you not realize what it is you are defending. Saying that Mary is the Mediatrix of ALL Grace is saying that All Grace comes to us apart from Christ.

That’s like saying that Christ did not come to us from the Father since he came through Mary.