6,000 years

[misslollipops]

YEC do not takes in account that Genesis might be a bit like Revelations. A prophetic book designed to be taken in a symbolic way. There is no way for someone to write with accuracy of subjets long ago in the past that no one could have witnessed. Not even Moses. And God when talks in visions is highly symbolic.

Adam was not highly symbolic. He was a real person.
Paul references him Rom5:12

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Genesis is a true historic record.
Adam’s grandson Enosh could have given the story of creation to Noah first hand since they lived such long lives. Read Gen5

 

[Contarini]

A symbolic way? How does God talk?

In symbols. How else?

Edwin

 

[edwest2]

See Acts 22:6 on -

And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
And I fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And I answered, Who art though, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

No symbolism.

God bless,
Ed

 

[savedsinner]

As you can see all the days were equal. Consisting of morning and evening.
Also note that plants were created on the third day an sun was created on the fourth day. How could the plants have survived a millenia without sun if the days were thousands of years?

How could the plants survive 24 hours without the heat from the sun, wouldn’t that make the temperature on the earth about absolute zero?

I like Scott Hahn’s take on the Genesis account.

Genesis to Jesus
Too often people read the story of creation in terms of a religion vs. science debate. Yet, that imposes our historical situation on the text and misses the literary clues that explain to us the “religious” meaning the story had for ancient Israel, and the religious meaning that God intends for us in the 21st century.

Genesis 1:1 tells us that in the beginning the world was “formless and empty.” The plot proceeds by showing us how God sets out to fix this - first, by giving the world form and then filling it.

In Days 1-3, God creates the “form” or the “realms” of the world - the day and the night; the sky and the sea; the land and the vegetation.

In Days 4-6, God fills these realms with “rulers” or “governors” - the sun, moon & stars (which “rule over the day and over the night”; verses 14-19); the birds and the fish to fill the sky and the seas; and man and beast, which rule the land.

There’s a perfect order to all this. First God creates the “structure” of the world, then He fills that structure with living beings. It’s like He’s making a house and then putting inhabitants into it. And the individual days match up, too.

On Day 1, God creates day and night. On Day 4, He creates the “rulers” for the realms of day and night - the sun the moon and the stars.

On Day 2, He makes the sky and the sea. On Day 5, the sky and the sea are given their “governors,” the fish and birds.

On Day 3, the land and the vegetation are created. And on Day 6, animals and the first humans are given dominion, rule over that land.

After each day of creation, God sees that His work is “good.” After the six “work days” are through, God sees that His work is “very good.” The word “very” is used to mark the end of the creation cycle, since God had finished creating the realms and the rulers.

But if the universe is only 6,000 years old, how does one explain the following:

1. How can we see the stars with our naked eye if it takes the light from these stars up to a billion years to reach the earth?
2. How do you explain the creation of the Grand Canyon in Arizona?
   Remember that some of the layers which are sandwiched in between the sedimentary (ocean bottom) layers are ancient sand dunes.
3. How could Mt. Everest rise to an elevation of over 29,000 ft. above sea level within 6,000 years.

It is being lifted up by India pushing into Asia.

Here in the Pacific Northwest, tectonic plate movement of just a few centimeters a year can lead to earth quakes of a magnitude of 9 occuring every 500 years or so.
Mt. Everest rising almost 5 miles in 6,000 years would have be cataclysmic, and there is not the geological evidence of something with that magnitude of destruction in that area.

 

[misslollipops]

How could the plants survive 24 hours without the heat from the sun, wouldn’t that make the temperature on the earth about absolute zero?

I like Scott Hahn’s take on the Genesis account.

But if the universe is only 6,000 years old, how does one explain the following:

1. How can we see the stars with our naked eye if it takes the light from these stars up to a billion years to reach the earth?
2. How do you explain the creation of the Grand Canyon in Arizona?
   Remember that some of the layers which are sandwiched in between the sedimentary (ocean bottom) layers are ancient sand dunes.
3. How could Mt. Everest rise to an elevation of over 29,000 ft. above sea level within 6,000 years.

It is being lifted up by India pushing into Asia.

Here in the Pacific Northwest, tectonic plate movement of just a few centimeters a year can lead to earth quakes of a magnitude of 9 occuring every 500 years or so.
Mt. Everest rising almost 5 miles in 6,000 years would have be cataclysmic, and there is not the geological evidence of something with that magnitude of destruction in that area.

According to the timeline and geneology in the bible, the earth is about 6000 yrs old. So that it what I believe.
As far as the stars, I believe God created them with their light already here on earth. In other words as soon as they were created, their light was here.Gen1:14-16 says He made the stars and the light on earth on the same day. It doesn’t say God created the stars and then 500,000 years later their light shined on earth.
As far as the Grand Canyon, I’ve been there many times. There is no way that the Colorado River carved that canyon over millions of years. I knew that theory was false from the first time I ever stood on the rim. This is not really the proper thread to discuss the grand canyon though.
I believe that if you do some research on the canyon that was created after the Mt St Helens eruption, you might get some insight as to how a canyon can be created by flowing water in a very short time.

 

[savedsinner]

According to the timeline and geneology in the bible, the earth is about 6000 yrs old. So that it what I believe.
As far as the stars, I believe God created them with their light already here on earth. In other words as soon as they were created, their light was here.Gen1:14-16 says He made the stars and the light on earth on the same day. It doesn’t say God created the stars and then 500,000 years later their light shined on earth.
As far as the Grand Canyon, I’ve been there many times. There is no way that the Colorado River carved that canyon over millions of years. I knew that theory was false from the first time I ever stood on the rim. This is not really the proper thread to discuss the grand canyon though.
I believe that if you do some research on the canyon that was created after the Mt St Helens eruption, you might get some insight as to how a canyon can be created by flowing water in a very short time.

Well, I know it has been almost 30 years ago, but I did attend Northern Arizona University at Flagstaff, to become a National Park Ranger, and I took geology courses there. We had the Grand Canyon as our own backyard labratory.
I know that college professors aren’t too smart, but they did teach about the creation of the Grand Canyon, and it wasn’t like the mud flows of Mt. St. Helens.
I have seen the video where “Dr. Dino” tries to explain that the Grand Canyon was created just like the Mud flows at Mt. St. Helens, and I don’t agree with that opinion, infact I would say that it was pretty ignorant and not founded on any real science.
Just because one thing looks somewhat like another thing doesn’t meant they were created the same way.

Let me tell you how the Grand Canyon was created, as best as I can remember.
Over the millions of years the land was flat and about sea level.
There were many times the area was covered by seas, and other times it was dry land, including the sand dunes that I mentioned.
The Colorado river was running through the land as it began to rise. The flow of the river, with all it’s seasonal floods, and the grit of the sand kept up with the rising of the land to carve a path. With the level land, and mixed with wind erosion, and water erosion by rain, the river bed was somewhat meandering. And over the Millions of years, it carved out the canyon which we know recoginize and the Grand Canyon.

Again, it has been 30 years since I went to school there, so my description might be a little off, just like my mind, but you can look up the geological history on wikipedia.
The geology of the Grand Canyon

To say that its geological history of the Grand Canyon is similar to that of Mt. St. Helens, because at Mt. St. Helens the mud flows settled out into layers, doesn’t cut it with me, it is based on poor science in my opinion.

And to come up with some far fetched ideas of the creation of the Grand Canyon because if you don’t, then the millions of years that took to create it go against one’s literalistic interpretation of Genesis, just amaze me.

The world being only 6,000 years old is possible, but not probable when you look at nature.

Science tells us how God created man, and the Bible tells us why he created man.

Also what amazes me is that many of these people that take the creation account literally, say that Jesus is talking symbolically when he is referring the the last supper and the bread of life discourse.

 

[Church_Militant]

We have an exact geneology from Adam to Jesus. Lk3:23-38
We also have many of the ages that people lived to.
Such as Adam 930yrs, Enosh 905yrs. Gen5
You could do a time line from Adam and come up with about 4000yrs to Jesus by using the geneologies.
Gen 1:5 Says the first day consisted of evening and morning
The same in Gen1:8, 1:13,1:19,

etcSo? If a day was 1,000 years then you are way out to lunch then aren’t you?

Is a day the same length on Mars? Jupiter? Or a planet a gazillion light years from us? All of which were created at the same time?

Believe that if you want to…I don’t, and it makes not one iota of difference in a person’s faithful Christianity, does it?

 

[inthecloud]

BTW, evolutionary biologists now believe there was a real genetical Adam, the first modern man living in Africa about 100,000 years ago among less modern humans. All of us carry his genes. We are his descendants. We all are related. Microevolution may explain the different human races.
I have made several post in other evolution treads on the matter.

One of the things that made this man so special according to scientifc speculation is that he had the first modern symbolic thought capacity. Which includes the capacity to know God and to know sin above his animal instincts, so Jesus and Apostles were probably not talking about a symbolic Adam. But I still belive that Genesis is a largely symbolic prophetic book. Visions of the past given by the Holy Spirt merged with vague oral relates of Mesopotamia.

 

[misslollipops]

Well, I know it has been almost 30 years ago, but I did attend Northern Arizona University at Flagstaff, to become a National Park Ranger, and I took geology courses there. We had the Grand Canyon as our own backyard labratory.
I know that college professors aren’t too smart, but they did teach about the creation of the Grand Canyon, and it wasn’t like the mud flows of Mt. St. Helens.
I have seen the video where “Dr. Dino” tries to explain that the Grand Canyon was created just like the Mud flows at Mt. St. Helens, and I don’t agree with that opinion, infact I would say that it was pretty ignorant and not founded on any real science.
Just because one thing looks somewhat like another thing doesn’t meant they were created the same way.

Let me tell you how the Grand Canyon was created, as best as I can remember.
Over the millions of years the land was flat and about sea level.
There were many times the area was covered by seas, and other times it was dry land, including the sand dunes that I mentioned.
The Colorado river was running through the land as it began to rise. The flow of the river, with all it’s seasonal floods, and the grit of the sand kept up with the rising of the land to carve a path. With the level land, and mixed with wind erosion, and water erosion by rain, the river bed was somewhat meandering. And over the Millions of years, it carved out the canyon which we know recoginize and the Grand Canyon.

Again, it has been 30 years since I went to school there, so my description might be a little off, just like my mind, but you can look up the geological history on wikipedia.
The geology of the Grand Canyon

To say that its geological history of the Grand Canyon is similar to that of Mt. St. Helens, because at Mt. St. Helens the mud flows settled out into layers, doesn’t cut it with me, it is based on poor science in my opinion.

And to come up with some far fetched ideas of the creation of the Grand Canyon because if you don’t, then the millions of years that took to create it go against one’s literalistic interpretation of Genesis, just amaze me.

The world being only 6,000 years old is possible, but not probable when you look at nature.

Science tells us how God created man, and the Bible tells us why he created man.

Also what amazes me is that many of these people that take the creation account literally, say that Jesus is talking symbolically when he is referring the the last supper and the bread of life discourse.

I definitely agree that the land rose out of the ground during some time frame. If the land did not rise, the river would be flowing uphill which in impossible.
Another thing that struck me was the distance of the canyon walls from the river. If the river cut the canyon, the walls would be somewhat parallel and equidistant from the river. Not so at the grand canyon, at some sections the walls are closer and at other sections the walls are much further apart. I’ve seen places where giant crevices are removed from the canyon wall sometimes miles away from the river. How could this be except if the river changed its course?

 

[edwest2]

Man is not an animal (current popular heresy).

Man did not necessarily come out of Africa (currently most repeated idea on the internet and believed like it was Gospel).

The little neurological thing is so funny. Sorry, it is anti-God. Allow me to translate for my fellow Catholics.

You are a bag of chemicals. You respond to outside stimuli based on your genetic programming. At some point in man’s so-called evolution, his genes mutated to the point where his programming added what some people call right and wrong, but what we (scientists) believe is nothing more than programming that was beneficial for his survival and the passing on of his genetic material. Like any animal, you live, reproduce and die. Religion was also an evolutionary-genetic bit of programming that was only utilitarian. There is no God.

That’s what they’re telling you.

God bless,
Ed

 

[savedsinner]

How could this be except if the river changed its course?

Here is a quote from the wikipedia article I had linked to in my previous post which explains the creation of the canyon, sorry that I can’t be more informative,if I had realized there would be a quiz, I would have saved my notes.

Creation of the Grand Canyon

Uplift and nearby extension

Uplift of the Colorado Plateaus forced rivers to cut down faster.The Laramide orogeny affected all of western North America by helping to build the Cordilleran Mountain Range (of which the Rocky Mountains are a major part). This major mountain-building event started near the end of the Mesozoic (around 75 million years ago) and lasted well into the early Cenozoic. A second period of uplift started 17 million years ago, creating the Colorado Plateaus (the Kaibab, Kanab, and Shivwits plateaus bound the northern part of the canyon and the Coconino bounds the southern part). However, for reasons poorly understood, the beds of the Colorado Plateaus remained mostly horizontal through both events even as they were uplifted an estimated 9000 feet (2700 m). One hypothesis suggests that the entire plateau shifted in a clockwise rotation during the uplift and this helped to maintain its stability. Before the uplift the plateau region was about 1000 feet (300 m) above sea level and bounded by high mountains to the south and west.

In middle Tertiary time (about 20 million years ago) tensional forces (crustal stretching) created and expanded faults in the area and caused some moderate volcanic activity. To the west, these forces created the Basin and Range province by forming long north-south-trending faults along which basins (grabens) dropped down and mountain ranges (horsts) were uplifted. The extreme western part of the park is intersected by one of these faults, the Grand Wash.

The Colorado River is born and cuts down

The Colorado River had cut down to nearly the current depth of the Grand Canyon by 1.2 million years ago.Continued uplift of the Colorado Plateaus created monoclines and also increased the elevation of its plateaus. This steepened the gradient of streams flowing in the Colorado Plateaus province. The ancestral Colorado River was a landlocked river until 5.3 million years ago (see below). Before that it had a series of temporary base levels (lowest points) in large lakes in the Colorado Plateaus in the early Tertiary and possibly the Basin and Range by the middle Tertiary.

The opening of an arm of the Gulf of California 5.3 million years ago changed the direction of nearby streams toward the sagging and rifting region. The upstream uplift and downstream sagging caused streams flowing into the gulf to run and downcut much faster. Soon (geologically speaking) headwater capture consolidated these streams into one major river and associated tributary channels—the modern Colorado drainage system. The most important consolidation occurred when a separate preexisting river that was carving a channel into the San Andreas Fault and out into the gulf likely captured the landlocked Colorado. Excavation of the eastern part of the Grand Canyon began previous to this but was greatly accelerated and expanded west afterward.

Ice ages during the Pleistocene brought a cooler and wetter pluvial climate to the region starting 2 to 3 million years ago. The added precipitation increased runoff and the erosive ability of streams (especially from spring melt water and flash floods in summer). With a greatly increased flow volume, steepened gradient, and lower base level, the Colorado cut faster than ever before and started to quickly excavate the Grand Canyon two million years before present, almost reaching the modern depth by 1.2 million years ago.

Volcanic activity dams the new canyon

Vulcan’s Throne volcano above Lava Falls. Lava flows like this heavily eroded remnant once dammed the Colorado River.In later Pleistocene time, around one to two million years ago, basaltic lava from the Uinkaret volcanic field covered part of the area and in places cascaded down side canyons, even damming the western part of the canyon between miles 178 and 188 (286 and 302 km) in the Mount Trumbull area. The river was dammed in this way at least 13 times from 1.8 million to 400,000 years ago.

Three of these lava dams were over 1000 feet (300 m) high, forming lakes similar to reservoirs such as Lake Mead or Lake Powell. Some of the lakes were over 100 miles (160 km) long and 200 to 2000 feet (60 to 600 m) deep for many years, before finally over-topping the dam and eroding much of it away in massive cascading waterfalls (it took about 20,000 years from start of each dam’s formation to its destruction). Cinder cones and the remnants of lava flows are visible in the Toroweap area, and the remains of some of the dams exist today as rapids such as Lava Falls.

 

[savedsinner]

I am guessing that it was Moses who wrote the book of Genesis, but the stories had been handed down in an oral form long before his time.
Moses was guided by the Holy Spirit to write what God wanted written, and only what God wanted written.

But with that being said, I don’t think that one needs to take the creation in a literalistic way for it to be a truth.
I believe that God did create all, and that there was an actual Adam and Eve, our first human parents who fell, and brought sin into the world by their disobedience.

But I don’t think that the purpose of Genesis is to give us a scientific description of how God created ever thing.

Up here in the Pacific Northwest, there are the stories of the local native Americans which were handed down through the generations.
The stories tell of the volcanoes, Mt. Hood and Mt. Adams are fighting over the love of Mt. St. Helen’s, and in their anger and fighting they throw fire at one another.

Now, the part of the volcanoes having the emotions of love and anger are not true, but the fact that they erupted and sent fire into the sky many times is a truth.

I see the same with the creation account of Genesis, whereas the earth being created in 6 literal 24 hour days might not be true, the truth is that God created everything we see.

I am not going to totally rule out the literal 6 day creation, because I was not there, and ever thing is possible with God, but I would personally lean towards God using nature and its forces to create his world and universe.