62% of Catholic Charities $ from US Gov't?

[Corki]

Catholic Charities is not part of the Church in the United States. The Church might feel that it is, or consider that it is, but legally it is not. Which is why these independent organizations, regardless of Church affiliation, are subject to US laws regarding, say, OSHA or the new health care proposals. They aren’t churches.

Catholic Charities is part of the Church in the same way that Catholic hospitals and Catholic universities are part of the Church. They are not independent organizations. They are affiliates. I think you mean that it is not within the direct control of the heirarchy. As for laws, even parishes have to follow most laws such as OSHA, EEOC laws, FSLA, etc. Churches are not exempt from all laws.

 

[JReducation]

I found this video on a website that I think misrepresents what the Bishop said, so I used a link from the network. Other than what Cardinal Dolan said, or may have said, they repeat it here, but the thing I found striking at minute 3:40 is the claim that in 2010 the US Government gave 2.9 billion dollars to Catholic Charities, which would be 62% of it’s budget. And that CC got more money from the Obama administration than from Bush.

I had no idea Catholic Charities or any other charities, got money from the US Government.

Does anyone know if this is true or how to find out? Does this mean the taxpayers are being forced to support the Church? Is Catholic Charities considered part of the Church?

I really am confused in terms of the 1st Amendment with what’s going on here. I’m not even sure this should be in this forum. Is there some informed person who can explain this or confirm it or prove it’s wrong?

(if you watch the video, once it gets started, you can use the slider at the bottom to go forward to 3:40and skip the criticism of the Bishop parts)

I have worked with the poor and the disabled for decades. There is a great deal of misinformation out there. The government does not GIVE money to any Catholic organization.

There are several ways in which government money can be accessed by a religious organization.

1. The most common form is to provide services to the community that the state cannot provide. It is cheaper for the state to contract with a religious agency than to run its own agency. This saves the state overhead costs. Religious organizations can run the same types of services that the state runs with less bureaucracy. Therefore, the overhead is lower and the cost to the taxpayer is less. For example, special education. It is often cheaper to send students with special needs to private schools and pay tuition, than to build more schools and hire more teachers. Catholic schools are not the only ones who get these funds, because they are not the only ones who serve children with special needs. They only get tuition money. The same is true for a shelter. A city needs a shelter and any religious organization steps up to the plate to open one, the city would rather pay that organization than run its own shelter.
2. The next source of government funding is funding that is given to the individual, not to the agency. For example, if you’re a senior citizen or have a disability, you receive Social Security. If you need specialized care either at home or at a facility, Medicare has to cover it. This is money that goes with you wherever you go. If you choose a Catholic facility, that facility can bill Medicare. Here is where people want to draw the wrong conclusion. People argue that if the government is picking up the bill, the government should have a say in your organization. The fact is that the government has to pick up the bill, because the person using the funds paid into Social Security. It’s not government money. It’s the citizen’s own money coming back to him or her. This is called entitlement funds. The person is entitled to use those funds.
3. Occasionally the government puts out RFPs (Requests for Proposals). For example, recently, the government allocated money for parenting education for men. However, there was not enough money for the states to run this programs. Instead of giving it to the states, the federal government put out an RFP. Any agency can submit a proposal for a parenting program that targets men. With the RFP come rules and regulations. This particular one, Catholics were unable to bid for, because the grant required that the agency who got the funds provide “reproductive education and referrals”. We all know what that means. Not all RFPs have conditions that are immoral. Therefore any Catholic agency can compete for the proposal. As long as the agency complies with the conditions of the grant, there should be no problem. Again, unfortunately people misunderstand and interpret it as the government funding YOUR parenting education program. That’s not true. It’s their idea and their money. They’re looking for anyone who wants to run it. The manpower and overhead comes from the recipient of the grant. The grants are only granted, if the agency receiving the grant agrees to put in X number of dollars into the program. That’s how the government saves money.

It may be a program that costs $10 million to run. The government offers $6 million to anyone who will run it and provide the other $4 million. Once again, those grants have rules.

 

[JReducation]

Often, people get the mistaken impression that the government subsidizes the Church. Nothing can be further from the truth. The Church subsidizes the government. Because the Church accepts to run these programs that would cost the government 40% more, if it the Church did not step up to the plate. The Church has no legal obligation to provide shelters, nursing homes, special education, soup kitchens, food banks, mental health counseling and related services, etc etc. The government, on the other hand, has a legal obligation to provide such things under laws enacted either by the Federal Government or the State Government.

If the Church agencies, of any religion, chose not to take the 60% that the government offers, it can simply run a smaller service with its 40%. Whereas the law will not allow the government to serve only 60% of the target population on the grounds that it only has 60% of the necessary funds. This was quite clear in 1975 when PL-94-142 was passed. The Supreme Court ruled that the law must contain a provision that the government would educate every disabled child from age 3 to 22 and that lack of funds was not an acceptable excuse not to do so. It’s impossible for the public education system to educate 100% of the children identified with special needs. The system does not have the resources and the government does not have enough money to cover 100% of those children.; When a private institution comes in and says that it will provide 40%, the government jumps at it.

Very often, Catholics are the most fierce enemies of Catholic ministries. Because all too often, Catholics are the first to demand that the Catholic Church accommodate to government demands on the grounds that it’s using government money. When in fact, it’s the Catholic Church that is bailing out the government. Without those agencies, many government programs cannot run. Without Catholic Hospitals, our nation’s healthcare system would be crippled. Medicare and Medicaid go with the patient, not the institution. The difference is that a Catholic Hospital can made due with the smaller payment from Medicare or Medicaid, because Catholic Hospitals are not top heavy with paid administrators as are other hospitals. That’s just one example.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[jilly4ski]

Churches don’t file 990s. When Catholic Charities, of any place, declare themselves a 501(c)3, they declare themselves not a church.

It’s the Courts who decide, actually, as in the case of Scientology.

I think you are confused about 501(c)3s. Churches are 501(c)s but they are exempt from filing 990s under another provision of the code.

old.usccb.org/ogc/hhregs03.shtml

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (“USCCB”) is a nonprofit corporation organized under the laws of the District of Columbia. The membership of USCCB is comprised of all active Catholic bishops of the United States. USCCB is recognized as exempt from federal income tax under section 501(c)(3) and classified as a church under section 170(b)(1)(A)(i) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (“Code”). USCCB is excepted from the requirement to file annual Form 990 under the provisions of section 6033(a)(2)(A)(i) of the Code.

International relief efforts of the Catholic bishops of the United States are conducted overwhelmingly through a subsidiary of USCCB, Catholic Relief Services-United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (“CRS”), a nonprofit section 501(c)(3) corporation founded in 1943, having an annual operating budget in excess of $250,000,000. CRS has filed independent comments in response to Announcement 2003-292 (“CRS Comments”). USCCB directly conducts two foreign grant-making programs through its Office to Aid the Catholic Church in Central and Eastern Europe and its Secretariat for the Church in Latin America.3 Responses to the issues identified for comment in Announcement 2003-29 are provided below with respect to each of these programs.

The CRS has filed 990s even though they claim they are exempt from doing so. The CRS, is a part of the USCCB, which is classified as a “church.”

 

[JReducation]

Catholic Charities is not part of the Church in the United States. The Church might feel that it is, or consider that it is, but legally it is not. Which is why these independent organizations, regardless of Church affiliation, are subject to US laws regarding, say, OSHA or the new health care proposals. They aren’t churches.

All organizations that are authorized to use the name Catholic do so with the condition that the organization submits to governance of the Catholic Church. This does not mean that organizations do not have to comply with civil laws in the host country. They do, be it in the USA or in Japan. However, there is one caviat. The Vatican has the authority to close any of them at the command of the pope.

There are organizations that are owned by corporations and they are authorized to use the name Catholic. The Church cannot close them. However, the Church can take away their legal right to use the name Catholic and if necessary to sue them in civil court for misrepresentation. You cannot call yourself Salvation Army, without their approval or unless they own you. The same with Catholic organizations. Either they are owned by the Church or are privately owned, but operate under the jurisdiction of the Church.

There is a misconception here. Let’s take schools and colleges. There are two types. There those owned by a diocese. In that case, the local bishop is the highest ranking authority of the school or college. There are other schools owned by religious orders. In that case, the local bishop has no authority over those schools. The highest ranking authority is the Board of Trustees. In most cases, the religious orders have the charter drawn up in such a way that the number of religious on the board make up more than half. This gives the order the controlling number of votes. The religious must vote as dictated by the superior, if the superior chooses to get involved, which is rare.

Catholic agencies belong to the diocese, a religious order or a private corporation that operates under the auspices of the Church.

As to civil law, there is a law in the Church that says that civil law has no authority in the Church. In other words, the Church does not acknowledge the authority of civil law over anything Catholic. Catholics are supposed to support this. Bl. John Paul called Catholics to task for being more patriotic than Catholic. Some people still don’t listen.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[1ke]

When Catholic Charities, of any place, declare themselves a 501(c)3, they declare themselves not a church.

Churches are 501(c)(3)s

 

[Julia_Mae]

I think you are confused about 501(c)3s. Churches are 501(c)s but they are exempt from filing 990s under another provision of the code.

No, I wasn’t confused, that’s what I said. Churches don’t file 990s, they are not 501(c)3.

 

[Julia_Mae]

All organizations that are authorized to use the name Catholic do so with the condition that the organization submits to governance of the Catholic Church.

I’m aware of that as a Canon, I also know it is ignored by many. It is also true that using the word “Catholic,” even with permission of the Ordinary, does not make Real Catholic TV “the Church.”

Catholic agencies belong to the diocese, a religious order or a private corporation that operates under the auspices of the Church.

No, they don’t. Not in legal terms in this country. They are “owned” by themselves. Or, in fact, no one, because they are legal entities unto themselves: they are legal “persons” in other words. They have Boards of Directors, but even if the Pope is on it, the agency, if it is a 501(c)3 is not church. Not part of a church. By definition. If it were, it would not be required to file that 990.

The Church and the agencies have a mutual agreement to follow the lead of the local Ordinary. But legally, they have no requirement to do so.

As to civil law, there is a law in the Church that says that civil law has no authority in the Church.

Right. Which is the distinction I am trying to draw here. But it’s also true that the Church has no authority in civil law. The Church, you and I and everyone else who is a Catholic may conceive of a Catholic agency as part of the Church. Legally, in the US at any rate, it is not.

In other words, the Church does not acknowledge the authority of civil law over anything Catholic. Catholics are supposed to support this. Bl. John Paul called Catholics to task for being more patriotic than Catholic. Some people still don’t listen.

It’s entirely inconsequential if we listen or not, in practical terms. These matters will be decided by the courts. Of course, salting the Court with a Catholic majority and Opus Dei cooperators or supernumeraries, can’t hurt.

However, if the Court finds these agencies are, indeed, Church, they will lose their 501(c)3 status. And over 60% of their funding. The video in the op has Cardinal Dolan saying he doesn’t see how we can continue with these social programs. I don’t think it was the threat they made out, I think he was just stating the obvious.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Churches are 501(c)(3)s

Well, we may be splitting legal hairs but they are not, IMO, as they are exempt from being 501(c)3 under the provisions. Though you might be correct in some way I am not finding in any IRS publication. At least not yet. But we’d better hope they are not, or the Church in America will be losing non-profit status entirely next:

Exemption Requirements - Section 501(c)(3) Organizations

To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.

 

[jilly4ski]

No, I wasn’t confused, that’s what I said. Churches don’t file 990s, they are not 501(c)3.

And where do you find the understanding that 501(c)3s cannot be Churches. Here is the text of 501(c)3

(3) Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for** religious, charitable,** scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.

Nothing in this section restricts Churches from being 501(c)3s. Why are orgs 501s? Because if they are, they are exempt from federal income taxes!! They don’t want to be exempt from being a 501(c)3, but they are exempt from making the 990 filing, which is an extra exemption, not because they are exempt from section 501(c)3.

law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/6033 Here is an online copy of the code you can browse. Section 501, is under personal income taxation. Where the provision which exempts churches from filing a 990 is under administration and filing. Sec 6033, which classifies 501(3)c who are churches have a mandatory exemption from filing.

 

[1ke]

Well, we may be splitting legal hairs but they are not, IMO, as they are exempt from being 501(c)3 under the provisions.

I am not splitting hairs, and you do not understand the 501(c)(3) provisions if you are making the above statement.

From IRS publication 1828:

Churches and religious organizations, like many other charitable organizations, qualify for exemption from federal income tax under IRC section 501(c)(3)

Churches that meet the requirements of IRC section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS.

Though you might be correct in some way I am not finding in any IRS publication. At least not yet.

I might be correct in some way? No, I am correct, period, on this matter.

 

[Julia_Mae]

And where do you find the understanding that 501(c)3s cannot be Churches. Here is the text of 501(c)3

(3) Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, …

Saint Michael’s Media is a 501(c)3, it disseminates information of a religious nature. EWTN probably is, too, though I don’t know. There are a rather lot of 501(c)3s that are religious in nature. But they aren’t churches.

You and I are arguing a point neither of us is competent to make a definitive statement about. It’s my position that a church would be a 501(c)3 if it were not a church. Since it is, it is exempt. Ergo, not included under this section. Can I be wrong? Sure. But you having a different opinion reading the section doesn’t demonstrate that. Now I’m done with this because we cannot resolve it here. Besides which, it’s irrelevant to the topic.

From IRS publication 1828:

Churches and religious organizations, like many other charitable organizations, qualify for exemption from federal income tax under IRC section 501(c)(3)

Churches that meet the requirements of IRC section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS.

I might be correct in some way? No, I am correct, period, on this matter.

I refer you to my response above.

 

[jilly4ski]

(3) Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, …

Saint Michael’s Media is a 501(c)3, it disseminates information of a religious nature. EWTN probably is, too, though I don’t know. There are a rather lot of 501(c)3s that are religious in nature. But they aren’t churches.

You and I are arguing a point neither of us is competent to make a definitive statement about. It’s my position that a church would be a 501(c)3 if it were not a church. Since it is, it is exempt. Ergo, not included under this section. Can I be wrong? Sure. But you having a different opinion reading the section doesn’t demonstrate that. Now I’m done with this because we cannot resolve it here. Besides which, it’s irrelevant to the topic.

I refer you to my response above.

Sigh, have you read any of the links I posted to? If you read the section of the code that I linked to above, under section 6033, it says that all 501 orgs must file an annual return, but then goes on to say in 6033(a)(3) that Churches are exempt from filing. Thus for Churches to be exempt from filing they** MUST** be 501 orgs.

And the organizations themselves say they are considered 501s and Churches.
From the USCCB website old.usccb.org/ogc/hhregs03.shtml

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (“USCCB”) is a nonprofit corporation organized under the laws of the District of Columbia. The membership of USCCB is comprised of all active Catholic bishops of the United States. USCCB is recognized as** exempt from federal income tax under section 501(c)(3)** and classified as a church under section 170(b)(1)(A)(i) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (“Code”). USCCB is excepted from the requirement to file annual Form 990 under the provisions of section 6033(a)(2)(A)(i) of the Code.

Now it appears the determination has already been made. Churches are 501s. You are very confused about section 501 of the code and how the code works in general.

 

[wcknight]

I worked for in federal service for over 30 years, and just about every year I donated to Catholic Charities and Catholic Relief services at a fairly high level. I’m sure a lot of other Catholic federal employees did the same. Could some or much of this “goverment money” be the contributions from the “Combined Federal Campaign” ??

 

[Julia_Mae]

Now it appears the determination has already been made. Churches are 501s. You are very confused about section 501 of the code and how the code works in general.

I’m sorry you don’t seem to be able to post your opinions and information without making personal remarks, so this ill be the last time I read or respond to your posts. However you posted this:

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (“USCCB”) is a nonprofit corporation organized under the laws of the District of Columbia. The membership of USCCB is comprised of all active Catholic bishops of the United States. USCCB is recognized as exempt from federal income tax under section 501(c)(3) and classified as a church under section 170(b)(1)(A)(i) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (“Code”). USCCB is excepted from the requirement to file annual Form 990 under the provisions of section 6033(a)(2)(A)(i) of the Code.

I don’t think I am the one confused. A church, of any kind, is NOT by it’s own definition of what it includes, a 501(c)3 non-profit. Now I’m done, it’s thoroughly off-topic, anyway.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I worked for in federal service for over 30 years, and just about every year I donated to Catholic Charities and Catholic Relief services at a fairly high level. I’m sure a lot of other Catholic federal employees did the same. Could some or much of this “goverment money” be the contributions from the “Combined Federal Campaign” ??

Well, a “campaign” in a non-profit is usually a specific targeted fundraising drive, so, it would fit but… I’m curious as to what sort of federal employee you were and if you were able to give through your job.

 

[JReducation]

I’m aware of that as a Canon, I also know it is ignored by many. It is also true that using the word “Catholic,” even with permission of the Ordinary, does not make Real Catholic TV “the Church.”

No, they don’t. Not in legal terms in this country. They are “owned” by themselves. Or, in fact, no one, because they are legal entities unto themselves: they are legal “persons” in other words. They have Boards of Directors, but even if the Pope is on it, the agency, if it is a 501(c)3 is not church. Not part of a church. By definition. If it were, it would not be required to file that 990.

The Church and the agencies have a mutual agreement to follow the lead of the local Ordinary. But legally, they have no requirement to do so.

Right. Which is the distinction I am trying to draw here. But it’s also true that the Church has no authority in civil law. The Church, you and I and everyone else who is a Catholic may conceive of a Catholic agency as part of the Church. Legally, in the US at any rate, it is not.

It’s entirely inconsequential if we listen or not, in practical terms. These matters will be decided by the courts. Of course, salting the Court with a Catholic majority and Opus Dei cooperators or supernumeraries, can’t hurt.

However, if the Court finds these agencies are, indeed, Church, they will lose their 501(c)3 status. And over 60% of their funding. The video in the op has Cardinal Dolan saying he doesn’t see how we can continue with these social programs. I don’t think it was the threat they made out, I think he was just stating the obvious.

The most obvious is that we have Americans who are more patriotic than they are faithful. It’s Catholic Protestantism.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[jilly4ski]

I’m sorry you don’t seem to be able to post your opinions and information without making personal remarks, so this ill be the last time I read or respond to your posts. However you posted this:

I don’t think I am the one confused. A church, of any kind, is NOT by it’s own definition of what it includes, a 501(c)3 non-profit. Now I’m done, it’s thoroughly off-topic, anyway.

I am sorry you cannot take criticism without taking it personally. (I however do not apologize for pointing out the correct reading of the tax code) I do not understand your last sentence. A church is a church by their own definition whether or not they are considered a church for IRS purposes. Those who are considered a church under the code, receive a tax exempt status under 501(c)3, and then receive an exemption from filing under sec. 6033. However, who the IRS considers a church is a little more broad than what we consider a Church, since I would not include the USCCB as a “church” but since they are a subsidiary or affiliate of a church they receive the same benefits under the code.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The most obvious is that we have Americans who are more patriotic than they are faithful. It’s Catholic Protestantism.

While agreeing with you in spirit, Brother, I’d like to tweak that a little bit to “disagree” only to this extent: Many Americans, especially many Catholic Americans, seem not to understand what patriotism does and does not mean, does and does not exclude (or include).

In addition to failures in catechesis, there is exceedingly gross failure to understand the reach and limitations of constitutional principles, the reach and limitations of “rights” and of civil law. I place the latter failure at the feet of many modern educators, who have neglected that education, from grade school through graduate school. I secondarily place that failure at the feet of many otherwise shockingly “educated” journalists and political pundits, who have a populist misunderstanding of the concept of “rights,” versus an adequately academic understanding.

 

[Julia_Mae]

The most obvious is that we have Americans who are more patriotic than they are faithful. It’s Catholic Protestantism.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

It’s also off-topic.