666? And the system?

  • Thread starter Thread starter PeterII
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Well, there is one thing for sure. There is no shortage of possible answers. People have all kinds of answers. Problem is that there is no way to know if any of them currently posited are right. They might all be wrong.
 
It’s not about the number zero. The addition is just a mathematical heuristic to keep track of the number of units represented by each character. Each numeral represents six units of its respective order of magnitude.
 
White_Tree said:
to keep track of the number of units represented by each character.
Click to expand...
Forgive me for speaking bluntly, but I believe you are making a mistake here. The final sigma (ς) represents six units, but the other two do not. As @JSRG already pointed out to you, χ is not six but six hundred, which is a different number altogether. The Greek numeral χ cannot possibly mean six. Similarly, ξ can only represent sixty, not six. Your explanation can only apply to numbers expressed in Arabian numerals, where the same figure 6 can represent six or sixty or six hundred. But Greek numerals don’t work like that.
 
Last edited:
No apologies needed. I appreciate the time you’re taking to help me understand.

I’m not sure I’m following your point. It’s still a base-10 system. Following the table on this Wikipedia article, there is one set of numerals representing the numbers 1 through 9. There is another set representing the numbers 10 through 90. And another set after that representing the numbers 100 through 900.

So they are using base-10.

Thus, ς represents 6 units, ξ represents 6 tens, and χ represents 6 hundreds. At each order of magnitude (in base 10) they have a different numeral to represent the number of increments of that order of magnitude. Am I mistaken about that?

Thank you for your help on this matter, by the way.
 
Looking back on this thread, I realize now that I explained my ideas inadequately. I apologize for that, and I appreciate the critiques by you and @JSRG for helping me to realize my own failure to elaborate.

What I was illustrating in my posts above was the application of a system to uncover the spiritual archetypes behind numbers in the Hebrew and Christian traditions.

The basic premise underlying this approach is that the Bible (Hebrew and Greek) is a fundamentally spiritual text, and if it does have any literal or historical significance, that is secondary and subordinate to the spiritual significance those literal or historical details represent. The corollary to that, is that any types of literal or historical details would only be included if they also were indicative of some deeper spiritual archetype, or something it is important for man to know in order to grow closer to God.

If a sacred book is merely a recording of “magical” things that happened in the past, it is valueless unless it also speaks to something deep, perennial, and eternal within man. Anyone can write history, and if the Bible is merely a history book, there are plenty of other more detailed and more (objectively) reputable sources out there. The prophets, apostles, saints, and evangelists do not add any value by writing mere history. Their contribution to humanity comes from what they share of their own unique expertise, which is knowing God.

I therefore assume A) Everything in the Bible has some spiritual meaning, and B) the message it contains is timeless, and applicable to all people in every place and every time. From that basic framework, I seek to discover the spiritual meaning behind the stories in the Bible.

Part of that analysis is the identification of the spiritual archetypes associated with numbers. When I said that χ = 6+0+0 = 6, what I meant (and which I failed to explain properly) is that the spiritual archetype represented by the number 600 (χ) is the same as the spiritual archetype represented by the number 6 (ς). If St. John had written ςςς, I’m not even sure what that would mean. (Maybe you could tell me.) But he can achieve the triple repetition of that archetype (6) by instead writing χξς.

So that’s what I was trying (and failing) to say, along with all of the assumptions that underpin my analysis. I fully recognize that many of those assumptions are debatable. There are many people who think the Bible is a history book, and the Apocalypse of St. John is a literal foretelling of events that will take place in the future. I disagree with that view. I think everything in the Bible, from the Creation of the world all the way through the Second Coming of Christ has direct significance for us today, and had, has, and will have that same significance for every person in every age.
 
Thank you, @White_Tree, for that carefully written explanation. I have never read anything by Jung and I have only a vague idea of what an archetype is, but I get the gist of what you’re saying. My own approach to the Bible, as you will have noticed, is quite different. This has been an interesting and fruitful conversation and I hope we will have further opportunities to exchange ideas.
 
Last edited:
That was a cool article. Thanks for sharing it. 🙂 Many of the meanings he writes about agree with the ones I use myself.

To expand a little on what he’s written, sometimes the decomposition of certain numbers also contains a meaning that builds upon a base archetype.

For instance, he talks about how 10 relates to rulership and authority, and he relates this to the Ten Commandments. There is also a tradition (based in the Talmud) that states there are 613 commandments in the Torah. The 613 refers to the same archetype as 10. 6+1+3 = 10 (Hebrew also uses a base-10 system. 😉 ) So it’s natural that the two systems of commandments point towards the same archetype.

And I agree with him that the meanings are sometimes context dependent. For instance, in this thread, we were talking about the negative aspect of 6 as it relates to the human being trapped in temptation. But like he pointed out, there is also a positive aspect. In Hebrew, 6 is the letter Vav: ו (…and that doesn’t look like a Vav at all with this sans serif font… oh well…).

Vav is phallic in nature, and can symbolize the projective force of God in the act of Creation. That is why every verse after the first of the creation story in Genesis 1 starts with that letter (which is usually translated in English as “and”). Obviously that is a positive symbol.

The rabbis in the Zohar state the mark of Cain was the letter Vav, because it is indicative of the Covenant (circumcision). I suppose whether the mark of Cain is positive or negative might be a matter of debate. 🙂
 
Fun fact. Revelation is not the first place in the Bible that 666 occurs. It also makes an appearance in 1 Kings 10 and 2 Chronicles 9, listed in both as the amount of gold Solomon collected every year. Both accounts describes Solomon’s immense wealth and how he glorified himself with the wealth. “You cannot serve God and wealth.” Recall in 1 Samuel 8 that God, speaking through the prophet Samuel warned Israel about installing an earthly king in authority over them. “He will also tithe your flocks. As for you, you will become his slaves. On that day you will cry out because of the king whom you have chosen, but the LORD will not answer you on that day.” Following the account of wealth in 2 Chronicles 9, 2 Chronicles 10 has a quote to Solomon’s son, who became king after Solomon died, about how some viewed the kingship of Solomon. “Your father put a heavy yoke on us, but now lighten the harsh labor and the heavy yoke he put on us, and we will serve you.”

I haven’t really been able to find any good Catholic commentaries on this. I have a hard time believing the 666’s in Kings/Chronicles and Revelation is entirely coincidental. Interesting parallel between Solomon and Nero is that both as leaders of their nation used their country’s wealth to build palaces for themselves and glorify themselves (but many kings throughout history do the same). To me the lesson is an anti-christ typology is not necessarily easily spotted. I enjoy Star Wars and Lord of the Rings movie series for entertainment value, but I really hate the way those movies portray evil. Evil in those movies is black, ugly, cold, dark with people staring at black, metal walls. Evil is much more deceptive than that. If possible, even the elect will be deceived. In our discernment we have to determine if people are serving God above all and their neighbor as themselves, or do they serve the unholy trinity of me, myself, and I.
 
Thank you! I’m going to adopt this for myself because I DO INDEED yes struggle with these things and desires. All I really want is to stand there at Mass with all of you and listen to that song “I have called you by name, and You are Mine.” (Do you know that song? My favorite.) I want the Light in my heart. Not lust. I am definitely a Beast when it comes to lust. But I have made so much progress and I think I’m going to do okay. And if that is so, I know all of You can, too. Cheers and thank you’s all around. -Peter
 
White_Tree:

THAT, is the most beautiful post I have had the pleasure of reading online. I cannot thank you enough for such.
 
That would make John a false prophet because he prophesied of a coming 666 well after Nero died!
 
Dudd said:
That would make John a false prophet because he prophesied of a coming 666 well after Nero died!
Click to expand...
Did he? Revelation gives no date of composition. Some will cite Irenaeus as saying it was written under Domitian (and therefore post-Nero), as Irenaeus writes “that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.” But it is ambiguous in the Greek whether what is being referred to is John or the revelation.

This page goes over some of the evidence, asserting it points to a pre-Domitian date:
http://www.tektonics.org/esch/revdate.php

I’m not endorsing everything on that page, particularly the section on interpretation, but its analysis of the dating of Revelation is quite useful.

But even if we give a later date to Revelation, Nero still can work as the 666, in that John is giving a prophecy of someone similar to Nero in the future. Nero would have basically been the go-to “bad guy” for the early church so such a comparison for a future persecutor would not be unwarranted.
 
Last edited:
Totally unrelated, but when you add up all the numbers on a roulette wheel, they come to 666. Roulette has ruined a lot of people.
 
That’s interesting. I think that means we may expect to find it in Pascal’s triangle, in the 38th row down, in the third cell from either end?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
That doesn’t work. I’ve been through this before and you will never convince me that John wrote the Revelation before Nero died. Nero’s image on coins began circulating in AD50!

Irenaeus leaves no ambiguity when John wrote Revelation. Who was Irenaeus? He was a disciple of Polycarp - Polycarp was a disciple of John! Who would know better when it was written? NOBODY!

It’s not only Irenaeus who claims John wrote Revelation in AD90-95, other historians say so.

Papias, Irenaeus, Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, and Justin Martyr, Eusebius, and even Jerome, the one who translated the Scriptures into Latin (The Vulgate). He lived from 340 to 419. He states clearly in two places, that John was banished under Domitian and that is when he wrote the Book of Revelation.
 
The church fathers who attribute their view about dating Revelation after 70 AD are basing it primarily on Irenaeus, since he was the only one to suggest such a time frame. Nevertheless, he could be mistaken.

Revelation is primarily about the destruction of Israel, which is the Whore spoken of in the prophecy. To date it after the destruction of the Temple wouldn’t make any sense. The Temple and the Holy city were the last symbols of the old covenant; their destruction marked the ending of that age.

I don’t believe the mark was referring to the coin. The imagery doesn’t seem to fit that explanation. They received the mark on their right hand and forehead, which is in contrast to the seal of God on the foreheads and hands of the righteous.
 
PeterII said:
What is 666?
Is it the Antichrist?
Click to expand...
666 is a number
In the days of old some people assigned numbers to the letters of names of persons
666 represents the number of the name of a man - oft-said as being the coming AntiChrist
 
Last edited:
Crusader13 said:
Revelation is primarily about the destruction of Israel, which is the Whore spoken of in the prophecy.
Click to expand...
The “whore” or “harlot” in Chapter 17 is intended to represent Rome, surely. That’s what I’ve always seen, in both Catholic and Protestant commentaries. Do you have a source for your view that Israel is meant?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top