69 of Daniel's 70 weeks

[JohnWilliams]

I am sorry I can’t make this more clear but the html is shut off in my posts and I am too ignorant to figure out how to turn it back on, or I could bold, color, etc.

Prophecy would seem to be full of mathematical perfection. In this first problem alone we find that in 3 consecutive verses Daniel pegged - exact to the year - the relationship of 3 separate events, spanning 483 Hebrew years - that were all in his future - but came to pass just as he prophesied.

Daniel 9:24-26 (KJV): Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Almost 100 years after Gabriel spoke to Daniel, a special decree was granted by Artaxerxes I to Nehemiah (444-445 BC). This is the ONLY decree recorded in the Bible that gave the Jews permission to “restore Jerusalem and rebuild its walls”. The Messiah, Jesus, was “cut off” or crucified in 32 or 33AD. But are those 69 weeks 69 sevens of years? Could there be a prophetic “language” involved here?

Ezekiel 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
Numbers 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, [even] forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, [even] forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

If we were to try a “language” of “each day for a year” then we have 69 x 7 or 483 Hebrew years. If we then experiment with this possible “language” a little and consider an Old Testament Hebrew month to be 30 days, and thus employ a multiplier of .9857, to reconcile Daniel’s (per Genesis) 30 day month - Hebrew year - with the solar year units of our modern historical record, it would yield: 483 x .9857 = 476 solar years. Artaxerxes’ decree in 444 BC + 476 years = 32 AD, the cross right to the year!"

The Jews did adjust their calendar periodically or the seasons would have changed, but consider this exercise more in the realm of “what if” the Lord meant for us to use 30 days of the length of a month for Old Testament prophecy.

Regarding the six points that were supposed to be fulfilled during these 70 weeks we find that all but one were fulfilled at the cross. Did not Jesus (1) finish transgression eternally, (2) make an end of sin, (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and (6) anoint the Most holy with His own precious blood? Of course, praise the Lord! Point (5), however, was left out: ‘Seal up vision and prophecy’. Could this be where those 7 weeks and 62 weeks come in?

7 x 7 Hebrew years = 48.3 Solar years. 444 BC - 48.3 = 395.7 BC, Malachi was written. Malachi was inspired to write the last book of the Old Testament in about 396 BC. The Scripture to the Jews was complete, and no more was written until the New Testament era! So Old Testament vision and prophecy were indeed ‘sealed up’. As one dear Rabbi lamented in about 200BC, ‘The Holy Spirit has departed from Israel,’ and until this very day, the Jews, as a nation, have not been permitted to see any further. The Lord has blinded their eyes so they could not recognize Jesus as their Messiah (Romans 11:8, 2 Corinthians 3:15).

The mathematical method above can be confirmed with several other Old Testament prophecies. Regarding the multiplier for Hebrew to solar years, taking the 360 day Hebrew year and dividing it by 365.24 average days in a solar year, we get .9856532. Rounding this number shorter we arrive at .9857 which is the multiplier I used above, and uniformally for ALL Old Testament prophecy.

Here is a website where some math guys calculate the odds of just the 69 week prophecy coming to within even a couple of years of being correct: members.aol.com/SHinrichs9/critic7/critic7.htm

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,
OH MY GOODNESS!!! I just studied this exact thing today in bible study. My head is still swimming from the math I am doing the study through Beth Moore and she wnt through all the math.
She said what you did about the decree being signed to rebuild the temple was on March 5th 444B.C. That decree started the calendar rolling as far as timing from Daniels prophesy. A 483 year period equals 173,880 days(Jewish calendar)What occurred this many days after the first of Nisan(Marcg 5th, 444B.C??(nisan 10 or March 30th A.D. 33) If you look at Luke 19:29-40
It was the TRIUMPHANT ENTRY OF JESUS CHRIST !!!

The first 7 sevens or 7x7=49 was how long it took to rebuild the temple. The second set of numbers 62 sevens(434 years + the first 49 years) was the time period up until Jesus’s triumphant entry. The last 7 years is of course the tribulation period.

I love studying Daniel. There is a Jewish/Christian in our group who gave us some great Jewish history today as well.

Wow, I learned alot today:nerd:

 

[Ron_Conte]

The claims in the above two posts are not correct.
Whoever came up with this nonsense does not understand the Jewish calendar (or the Scriptures) at all.

The math in the above posts is based on every month being 30 days and every year having 12 months. This is not even close to being correct.

A Jewish calendar month, in OT times, was according to the phases of the moon, making each month generally either 29 or 30 days.

An ordinary (non-leap) year has 353, 354, or 355 days. A leap year has 383, 384, or 385 days.
webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-jewish.html

Jewish leap years have 13 months, and a leap year was chosen in ancient times partly based on weather and crops, and on avoiding coincidence with Sabbatical and Jubilee years (so as not to make the time without planting and harvesting any longer).

Saint Irenaeus interpreted Daniel as referring to the future, not the past.
So did Jesus, when he referred to Daniel in his eschatological discourse.
The idea that the seventh week of years does not follow the other 69 weeks of years is unsupportable

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The claims in the above two posts are not correct.
Whoever came up with this nonsense does not understand the Jewish calendar (or the Scriptures) at all.

The math in the above posts is based on every month being 30 days and every year having 12 months. This is not even close to being correct.

A Jewish calendar month, in OT times, was according to the phases of the moon, making each month generally either 29 or 30 days.

An ordinary (non-leap) year has 353, 354, or 355 days. A leap year has 383, 384, or 385 days.
webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-jewish.html

Jewish leap years have 13 months, and a leap year was chosen in ancient times partly based on weather and crops, and on avoiding coincidence with Sabbatical and Jubilee years (so as not to make the time without planting and harvesting any longer).

Saint Irenaeus interpreted Daniel as referring to the future, not the past.
So did Jesus, when he referred to Daniel in his eschatological discourse.
The idea that the seventh week of years does not follow the other 69 weeks of years is unsupportable

Yes Daniel was referring to the future. Did I say it was the past? I wrote it so fast maybe I made a mistake. All but the seven year tribulation is past for us. What exactly dont you agree with? What is your take on all of this. Do you not see the timeline here at all and how Daniel’s prophecy comes true and when.

 

[JohnWilliams]

The claims in the above two posts are not correct.
Whoever came up with this nonsense does not understand the Jewish calendar (or the Scriptures) at all.

You might have missed the word “language”. Perhaps you don’t think I understand what a day is either since I used them as years. I will run another couple of OT problems for you using the very same method uniformally. Perhaps they are mathematical “accidents” that pin historical events and span periods over a thousand years in perfect harmony, not only with each other in the OT, but with the “days” in Revelation integrated with them as one.

The math in the above posts is based on every month being 30 days and every year having 12 months. This is not even close to being correct.

That is why I indicated that if the Jews only used 30 day months without adjustment their seasons would change, meaning summer would eventually be winter and vice versa. I am discussing a “language”. It is sometimes tough for us doctrine defensive Christians to open our eyes to simple discussion.

A Jewish calendar month, in OT times, was according to the phases of the moon, making each month generally either 29 or 30 days.

An ordinary (non-leap) year has 353, 354, or 355 days. A leap year has 383, 384, or 385 days.
webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-jewish.html

Jewish leap years have 13 months, and a leap year was chosen in ancient times partly based on weather and crops, and on avoiding coincidence with Sabbatical and Jubilee years (so as not to make the time without planting and harvesting any longer).

But can we look to the Lord, to scripture, for a little help with our “language” here?

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Gen 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
Gen 8:4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

Here is a really fun site that discusses the perfection of the 30 day calendar. 360calendar.com/

Saint Irenaeus interpreted Daniel as referring to the future, not the past.
So did Jesus, when he referred to Daniel in his eschatological discourse.
The idea that the seventh week of years does not follow the other 69 weeks of years is unsupportable

But what if the pattern of the weeks, divided as they were, appear to have some similarities to the Levitical calendar - perhaps indicating the 70th week being a special sort of Jubilee?

 

[JohnWilliams]

Daniel 12:11: And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Sacrifices were suspended three times in the Old Testament: once before Daniel (Chronicles 28:24-25), once during the Babylonian captivity in 583 BC (Chronicles 36:19 and Ezra 3:6), and once, about four hundred years later, by the Greek king Antiochus Epiphanies. So might the Lord have been referring to the event that was familiar to the writer? To sacrifices that were abolished during Daniel’s own lifetime?

1290 x .9857 =1271.5 solar years. Subtracting 583 (because it is BC) we get … 688.5 AD. A quick Yahoo search confirms that this was the year that construction began on the Dome of the Rock.

Bishop Sophronious may offer some additional insight: “When Khalifah Omar entered Jerusalem in 639AD, he was met by Sophronius, Bishop of the Jerusalem Church, who showed him around the city. Seeing the temple mount (then in rubble), Omar declared that he was going to build a memorial to Muhammad on the original site of the temple of God. Sophronius exclaimed in horror, “Verily, this is the Abomination of Desolation as spoken of by Daniel the prophet”, and it now stands in the holy place. Though Sophronius was a very old man of about 80, Khalifah Omar put him in prison and to forced labor, the severities of which killed him.” - Jerry Landay - “The Dome of the Rock”

1. Let’s try the very next verse:
   Daniel 12:12: Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

1335 x .9857 = 1315.9 - 583 (BC) = 732.9 AD. A quick Yahoo search determines that 732 was the year of the Battle of Tours, France. The Battle of Tours came exactly 100 years after Mohammed’s death. This is considered by many to be the most important battle, for Christianity, of the entire Christian era.

Charles “Martel” (the hammer), against astronomical odds, repelled and defeated the spread of Islam in its conquest of the world, as it headed up through Europe. thenagain.info/WebChron/WestEurope/Tours.html
This battle marked the zenith and provided the turning point in the onslaught of the Islamic first Jihad, delivering the mortal head wound to their advance, and killing the literal head of the advancing army Emir Abd er Rahman. “Without his leadership and guidance, the other commanders were unable to even agree on a commander to lead them back into battle the following morning. The effect of the death of Abdul Rahman on both Islamic and world history was profound.”. Thus a figurative as well as literal mortal head wound to the beast.

“… according to one unidentified Arab, ‘That army went through all places like a desolating storm.’ sacking and capturing the city of Bordeaux, and then defeating the army of Duke Odo of Aquitaine at the Battle of the River Garonne — where the western chroniclers state, ‘God alone knows the number of the slain’—[3] and Odo fled to Charles Martel, seeking help.”

It wouldn’t be until well over a millennium later, that Western oil wealth would heal the wound of the leopard-bear-lion beast so that its image could begin the second Jihad, in the image of the first Jihad. Daniel’s successive kingdom beasts of lion, bear and leopard (which many Bible scholars recognize as Babylon, Medo-Pursia, and Greece) are today united under their prophet Mohammed, in antichrist, as the composite leopard-bear-lion - BEAST - we find in Revelation 13. This same geographical region today is occupied by Iraq, Iran, and Syria. Mathematically and textually this verse works perfectly.

Stunningly, in these last two problems, we found that launching from the exact same date of 583 BC, the 1290 and 1330 day prophecies nailed - to the year - God’s symbolic pin date for the Islamic Dome of the Rock - the abomination of desolation - and then went on to pin the year of the defeat that ended Islam’s near conquering of the world!

And this was accomplished using the exact same mathematical method that previously perfectly pinned Daniel’s 7 and 69 weeks! All three with textual precision as well. Is it possible that we could find further confirmation of this mathematical language of prophecy in the book of Revelation?

 

[JohnWilliams]

How about a few problems from Revelation? Islam provided an effective exile for Christians and Jews from the Holy Land.

Here’s a problem that a 10 year old could solve:
Revelation 12:6: And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

If Israel is the “woman” in the context of this verse and we start with a presumption that the end of the 1260 days was when Israel came out of “the wilderness”, or out from being scattered among the nations, returning home and declaring her independence in 1948, and subtract 1260 years (“each day for a year”), we arrive exactly at … once again … 688 - The Dome of the Rock!

This symbolic prophetic pin date of the abomination of desolation marked the exile and fleeing of both Christianity and Judaism from the Holy City Jerusalem, causing it’s desolation, as a result of Islamization.

How about we try Revelation 11:2: But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

The city of Jerusalem was trodden by, or controlled by, Gentiles until the Israelis retook the city in 1967. There is an average of 30.44 days in a month, multiplied by 42 months = 1278.5 days (as years). Subtracting this from 1967 we arrive at … 688.5.

Are we supposed to believe that the mathematics in this thread are some kind of big accident? In the original post I pasted a link to some guys that calculated the odds of just a SINGLE ONE of these 6 problems hitting within even a couple of years of being correct. members.aol.com/SHinrichs9/critic7/critic7.htm

 

[JohnWilliams]

The second set of numbers 62 sevens(434 years + the first 49 years) was the time period up until Jesus’s triumphant entry.

My Bible says that “after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,” meaning killed.

It doesn’t say after threescore and two weeks “shall Messiah begin His ministry” - and after another 3-1/2 weeks - shall Messiah be cut off, or something like that.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

My Bible says that “after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,” meaning killed.

It doesn’t say after threescore and two weeks - and another 3-1/2 weeks - shall Messiah be cut off.

Hi,
Im not exactly sure what your point is to my quote but remember he was killed right after he made His triumphant entry. The passage says after the sixty two sevens the Anointed one will be cut off----translated means-----put to death. So after was less then a week later Jesus was put to death. I could be misunderstanding what you are trying to say. Im sorry if that is the case.
That 400 something time period included Jesus’s ministry. Daniel’s prophecy was talking about Anointing the most Holy. His triumphant entry on the donkey was fullfillment of that prophesy.IMHO.

 

[JohnWilliams]

Hi,
Im not exactly sure what your point is to my quote but remember he was killed right after he made His triumphant entry. The passage says after the sixty two sevens the Anointed one will be cut off----translated means-----put to death. So after was less then a week later Jesus was put to death. I could be misunderstanding what you are trying to say. Im sorry if that is the case.

I was pointing out that the math I proffered here was specific. It is also reinforced by successful solutions to more problems using the same method.

Your view requires less specificity in that you are stuck having to say well … “after was less than a week later …” which was my point.

[edit] P.S. - I may well be misunderstanding you too. Do you beieve Jesus was crucified likely around 32 or 33 AD?

[edit] P.P.S I think I figured it out. We are both using a language of 360 day Hebrew years for Old Testament prophecy, but I believe it is necessary to adjust it into solar years, because our modern-day historical record, from which we get the likely dates of Jesus cricifixion of around 32 or 33 AD, is in solar years.

If we figure the prophecy in Hebrew years but apply it to our modern solar calendar historical record, without adjusting, it is kinda like adding apples and oranges. Does this help?

 

[Pryority7]

I completely understand this whole concept because I learned it from Hal Lindsey when I used to read his books as a teenager. As you know, Hal is a fundamentalist dispensationalist and anti-catholic as well. My question is what ramifications does this 69 sevens have on what the catholic church teaches in regards to the end times as opposed to the dispensationalist view?

P7

 

[JohnWilliams]

I completely understand this whole concept because I learned it from Hal Lindsey when I used to read his books as a teenager.

The linear-historic, or continuous-historic eschatology I proffered here has nothing to do with dispensationalist/futurist doctrine but rather runs extremely contrary to it. Indeed with this view most of Revelation has already been fulfilled. Nor does it have any closer of a relationship with preterism or partial-preterism. You may have missed the problems that were presented in successive posts after the first one, which clearly do not support those doctrines.

As you know, Hal is a fundamentalist dispensationalist and anti-catholic as well. My question is what ramifications does this 69 sevens have on what the catholic church teaches in regards to the end times as opposed to the dispensationalist view?
P7

Again, this is anything but a dispensational view. I was under the apparent mistaken impression that this particular forum was for apologetics, and so I thought it would be most appropriate here. I didn’t know it was for Catholic-only apologetics. If that is the case I would very much appreciate someone moving the thread to the “non-Catholic religions” forum. Thank you for bringing this issue up and my apologies if I misplaced the thread.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I completely understand this whole concept because I learned it from Hal Lindsey when I used to read his books as a teenager. As you know, Hal is a fundamentalist dispensationalist and anti-catholic as well. My question is what ramifications does this 69 sevens have on what the catholic church teaches in regards to the end times as opposed to the dispensationalist view?

P7

Hi,
Im not sure what the CC teaches on this. I think the only difference(because of math) would be that people might believe that the time period(400+years mentioned above) ended with Jesus’s birth or His baptism instead of His triumphant entry. I suppose there might also be differences of opinion of the 7 year tribulation period. Although I thought all christians believed in the 7 year tribulation period right before the end. I think that part is clear in Scripture anyway. How the 7 years play out is an open debate I know.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

[edit] P.S. - I may well be misunderstanding you too. Do you beieve Jesus was crucified likely around 32 or 33 AD?

[edit] P.P.S I think I figured it out. We are both using a language of 360 day Hebrew years for Old Testament prophecy, but I believe it is necessary to adjust it into solar years, because our modern-day historical record, from which we get the likely dates of Jesus cricifixion of around 32 or 33 AD, is in solar years.

If we figure the prophecy in Hebrew years but apply it to our modern solar calendar historical record, without adjusting, it is kinda like adding apples and oranges. Does this help?

Hi,
Yes and yes:thumbsup:

 

[JohnWilliams]

Hi,
Im not sure what the CC teaches on this. I think the only difference(because of math) would be that people might believe that the time period(400+years mentioned above) ended with Jesus’s birth or His baptism instead of His triumphant entry. I suppose there might also be differences of opinion of the 7 year tribulation period. Although I thought all christians believed in the 7 year tribulation period right before the end.

When I held futurist doctrine, as recently as last spring, I used to believe that too. At the time I am not sure I could have even defined the term doctrine, much less eschatology. I was, however, steeped in Jack Van Impe for perhaps a decade. I still believe there are few futurists that do a better job of explaining that donctrine.

I have since had some experience with folks holding other eschatologies, but the futurists seem to be the only group that hold a “future seven year tribulation” belief. It is credited primarily to John Darby of the Plymouth Bretheren in the late 19th century, sometimes referred to as the “father of dispensationalism”.

I am not sure what Catholics believe as my question regarding the “time of the end” went kinda unanswered in this forum.

I think that part is clear in Scripture anyway. How the 7 years play out is an open debate I know.

I know that preterists and partial preterists depend on Matt 24 (and Mark and Luke the “Olivet Discourse”), to explain this period of tribulation as being limited to when the Romans killed a million to a million and a half Jews in 70 AD and destroyed the temple. Interestingly the Christians all escaped fleeing to the hills and did not suffer this event. So this event’s tribulation was limited to the Jews, but if you look at Matthew 23 you can see why.

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

And it was.

Later on:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I believe that Luke offers us the time pins of this period of tribulation by beginning it when “Jerusalem is compassed with armies”.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Jerusalem being compassed with armies of course happened many times before Jesus was speaking, and many times after. But in this discourse Jesus talks about this tribulation in a “shall be” tense so He is likely refering to the future of when he is speaking. (Matt 24:21 above)

It is likely then that the period of tribulation began with the horrific events of 70 AD. It could have been marked even earlier by the stoning of Stephen since when you read “Martyrs Mirror” we can see how Christians suffered well before 70 AD. But tribulation in Jerusalem and elsewhere for that matter, was hardly limited to that event as Christians and Jews continued to suffer persecution throughout the Christian era. Later on in the discourse Luke seems to offer a second time pin for when the period of tribulation ends:

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

In a linear-historic view I believe that this “times of the Gentiles be fulfilled” happened in 1967, when by Revelation “the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.” which I believe ended with the Jews taking back control from the Muslims, demonstrated mathematically in post #7 above in regard to the “court without the temple” verse.

I don’t believe that tribulation is over by any means, but I believe that the specific period of tribulation marked by the dates 70 AD to 1967 was filled, and we now find ourselves in Daniel’s “time of the end”.