7 books of the Bible?

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What are these books – the ones that Martin Luther took out, but still exist in Catholic Bibles – called? I keep reading tons of confusing terms: apocryphal, septuaguint, deuterocanonical? Which is the correct term for these books? (You wouldn’t believe how hard it is to learn about them through Google! Any other info would be great.)
 
What are these books – the ones that Martin Luther took out, but still exist in Catholic Bibles – called? I keep reading tons of confusing terms: apocryphal, septuaguint, deuterocanonical? Which is the correct term for these books?
This link will get you to a pretty thorough discussion of this topic. The Septuagint was the Greek translation of the Hebrew bible along with the books of the Deuterocanon plus a few more. It was begun around 250 B.C.
 
Deutercanonical is generally the correct term.

Septuigint is a Greek translation of most of the Old Testament I believe.
 
Basically, before the birth of Jesus the Greeks were in charge of Palestine, there were two warring factions the Ptolemies and Seleucids. The Ptolemies held Alexandria (the capital of the Alexandrian Empire) in Egypt and attractive Jews to emmigrate there in order to strengthen their Empire, much in the way that Brits were encouraged to emmigrate to Australia last century. This led to the Hellenisation of Judaeism (some would argue the Hebrewisation of the Greeks 😛 ). Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language so the Jewish Scriptures were translated into Greek (somewhere between 300-200 BC).

As well as allowing better access for Hellenised Jews, this also allowed many non-jews a peak into Jewish thought of course!

This translation was supposed to have been completed by 70 scholars at the same time, all came up with the same translation and thus it was called the Septuagint (Greek for 70) or LXX.

The Septuagint was also a source of the Old Testament for early Christians during the first few centuries AD. Many early Christians spoke and read Greek, thus they relied on the Septuagint translation for most of their understanding of the Old Testament. The New Testament writers also relied heavily on the Septuagint, as a majority of Old Testament quotes cited in the New Testament are quoted directly from the Septuagint (others are quoted from the Hebrew texts). Greek church fathers are also known to have quoted from the Septuagint. Even today, the Eastern Orthodox Church relies on the Septuagint for its Old Testament teachings. Some modern Bible translations also use the Septuagint along side Hebrew manuscripts as their source text.

The Jews, perhaps forced to decide on a canon on scripture because of Christian use of it met in Jamnia about 100 AD after the destruction of the Temple and decided on a canon that left out the Deuterocanonical books: Tobias (Tobit), Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, I and II Machabees, and three documents added to protocanonical books, viz., the supplement to Esther, from x, 4, to the end, the Canticle of the Three Youths (Song of the Three Children) in Daniel, iii, and the stories of Susanna and the Elders and Bel and the Dragon, forming the closing chapters of the Catholic version of that book. Of these works, Tobias and Judith were written originally in Aramaic, perhaps in Hebrew; Baruch and I Machabees in Hebrew, while Wisdom and II Machabees were certainly composed in Greek. The probabilities favour Hebrew as the original language of the addition to Esther, and Greek for the enlargements of Daniel.

The Catholic Church has always used the Septuagint since before the Council of Jamnia and so it has retained these Deuterocanonical writings. Luther decided on the Hebrew canon.

Simple! 👍
 
Wow, so many myths concerning canon it’s hard to know where to start.

Maybe we will start with Martin Luther. He did not reject the books commonly called Apocrypha or Deuterocanonicals. He continued to use them for reading in the church, a practice which continues to this day in may Protestant denominations such as Lutherans, Episcopalians and so on.

What they have been called is kind of a mess I would admit. Some called them the Ecclesiatical canon, to distinguish all those books suitable for reading in the church, others have called them Apocrypha. One of the most famous uses of that term comes from the Latin Vulgate translation. Jerome in his prefaces called them apocrypha.

As for setting them in a separate section and saying they are not scripture. Martin Luther didn’t really start that idea either. And of course when a translation is intended for the common people and not just the learned it’s easy to see why putting them in a separate section was important.

That was actually done as Martin Luther was working on his translation.

The earliest Latin version of the Bible in modern times, made from the original languages by the scholarly Dominican, Sanctes Pagnini, and published at Lyons in 1528, with commendatory letters from Pope Adrian VI and Pope Clement VII, sharply separates the text of the canonical books from the text of the Apocryphal books.

And as for them not having full authority of scripture, well that was just a given among the learned of the time.

The Glossa ordinaria was used as the standard textbook by the Roman Catholic Church for several hundred years. It tells how many unlearned think the apocryphal books are authoritative, but how the learned now differently. At the start of each apocryphal book it makes a clear statement they are not scripture.

Cardinal Ximenes in the Complutensian Polyglot Bible, actually the first Greek Text in the West but the second to be published since Erasmus was granted a franchise for his. Made clear statements the Apocyrphal books were not scripture, and that the Church did not accept them for any doctrine.

Many other scholars who’s writings have survived like Erasmus and Eck were in perfect agreement.

We have just a couple of years before the publishing of Martin Luther’s complete translation a sort of Rosetta Stone statement by Cardinal Cajetan in his commentary on the Old Testament.

He says"Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St. Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed among the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned canonical. For the words as well as of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clear through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage’ (Commentary on all the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament. Taken from his comments on the final chapter of Esther. Cited by William Whitaker, A Disputation on Holy Scripture (Cambridge: University Press, 1849), p. 48)"

And so if you wade through that, you find the historic position of the Church in amazing consistency. You have the Old Testament canon of the Hebrew Scriptures authoritative for doctrine and you have the broader Ecclesiatical canon of all the books used for reading in the Church. One can argue words, but what is quite clear is Martin Luther continued to use the books in exactly that way, and he was, in that, in complete agreement with the Catholic Church of his day.

It wasn’t until that assembly of the unlearned known as the Council of Trent that there was any dispute, then, in one of the great underwhelming votes of history, 25 aye, 15 nay, 16 abstain, they supposedly recognized what was supposedly known by all for a long time.

They supposedly set all the books equal, but while you do not hear it being rejected outright, you see the Catholic Church doing exactly that in practice, and so they are treated differently, called by a distinguishing name, and they really are not used as a source of doctrine. Oh you hear a couple of passages quoted about certain things, but they are weak at best, and the Orthodox who accept them as scripture disagree on the doctrines supposedly drawn by some from them.

Removing the Apocrypha book actually happened when the Bible societies did so to reduce publishing costs in the 1800’s.

JJ
 
What are these books – the ones that Martin Luther took out, but still exist in Catholic Bibles – called? I keep reading tons of confusing terms: apocryphal, septuaguint, deuterocanonical? Which is the correct term for these books? (You wouldn’t believe how hard it is to learn about them through Google! Any other info would be great.)
Catholics call them deuterocanonical, protestants call them apocryphal.
 
If they weren’t maybe you would explain why 31 of the small number voting did not know enough then to recognize the canon of the Bible? If it was simply official recognition of what was supposedly known for centuries why did over half the Bishops attending not know?

JJ
 
The earliest Latin version of the Bible in modern times, made from the original languages by the scholarly Dominican, Sanctes Pagnini, and published at Lyons in 1528, with commendatory letters from Pope Adrian VI and Pope Clement VII, sharply separates the text of the canonical books from the text of the Apocryphal books.
The earliest Latin version of the Bible in modern times, made from the original languages by the scholarly Dominican, Sanctes Pagnini, and published at Lyons in 1528, with commendatory letters from Pope Adrian VI and Pope Clement VII, sharply separates the text of the canonical books from the text of the Apocryphal books.
— Bruce Metzger, An Introduction to the Apocrypha (New York: Oxford, 1957), p. 180
(cited on this Baptist Web page)


I think you forgot a footnote, JJ.

 
I funny how the Fundagelical apologist in that site uses insult as a what to “debate”.

BTW why fundagelicals often quote among themselves. And outdated sources instead of all the new evidence coming of modern Biblical scholarship.
O wait “modern Biblical scholarship” is anathema for a fundangelical.
 
The earliest Latin version of the Bible in modern times, made from the original languages by the scholarly Dominican, Sanctes Pagnini, and published at Lyons in 1528, with commendatory letters from Pope Adrian VI and Pope Clement VII, sharply separates the text of the canonical books from the text of the Apocryphal books.
— Bruce Metzger, An Introduction to the Apocrypha (New York: Oxford, 1957), p. 180
(cited on this Baptist Web page)


I think you forgot a footnote, JJ.

I guess I did, thanks. It’s a good reference too, one well worth having. As is William Webster’s book which is where I got it, I thought I cited it, but it was William Whittacker not Webster… The Old Testament Canon and the Apocrypha.

One can come up with different editorial but the thing that is really irrefutable is that the Roman Catholic Church made and used lots of bibles and references that made the distinction between the fully authoritative canonical books and the ecclesiatical canon of those books which were read in the churches.

(Here’s the editorial) Unfortunately, in both the East, with the Septuagint, and the West with the Vulgate, both bibles basically became a superstitious icon and the people eventually contradicted the historical knowledge and accepted everything as fully canonical. Both were really the same thing one sees today with the KJonly or DRonly people, same tune, earlier verse.

I’m not even sure that the council of Trent’s decree was taken at first the way it is today. The Glossa ordinaria continued to be held in very high regard with all sorts of wonderful pious things being said about it. Seems strange for a reference that if you agreed with it you were supposed to be anathemized by the church.

JJ
 
Deutercanonical is generally the correct term.

Septuigint is a Greek translation of most of the Old Testament I believe.
Catholics call them deuterocanonical, protestants call them apocrypha. Apocrypha is Greek meaning forbidden. Septuigint is Greek for the number 70, which was the number of translators that translated the books of scripture into Greek. They did it in Alexandrea, Egypt. The Catholics use these books. Martin Luther used the Hebrew Bible. It was all the books written in Hebrew only, not Greek. Catholics have 7 more books than the protestants. Eastern Orthedox have a few more books than the Roman Catholics do. I know they have or had 4 Books of Maccebees, while the Roman Catholics have 2 Books of Maccebees.
 
The Glossa ordinaria was used as the standard textbook by the Roman Catholic Church for several hundred years.
As would many standard textbooks that are used today that question the Virgin birth, or the inerrancy of Scripture, abortion, contraception etc. I note with pleasure that Joe mentioned textbook but omitted any reference to the teaching authority of the Bishops. The question boils down to who has authority to decide what is the will of Christ. As a Catholic, I affirm that the Bishops in communion with the Bishop of Rome have the infallible authority to make such judgements, and that this corresponds to the will of Christ.
And so if you wade through that, you find the historic position of the Church in amazing consistency.
If the historic position is so amazingly consistent, surely the Glossa ordinaria would not merely quote the authority of St Jerome on this matter. It would surely quote the teachings of Councils and Popes in this matter to support Jerome’s thesis. St Jerome’s towering reputation in the field of Biblical studies in an era when the learned were wont to criticize supposed authorities led to a certain reverence for Jerome’s idea, and these were included in the Glossa ordinaria.

If the “learned” are swayed by the stature of Jerome, it wouldn’t have mattered. Even in the time of Jesus, the scribes and doctors of the law, who pored over the Scriptures, never got it right. Rightfully, the “unlearned”, relying on the guidance of the Holy Spirit, have maintained another canon of Scripture. Bruce Metzger, another towering scholar who forays into the formation of the Biblical canon acknowledges that despite Jerome’s stature and importance, the Western Church has generally accepted the deuterocannonical books as Scripture. He writes:

In the Latin Church,…, though opinion has not been unanimous, a generally high regard for the books of the Apocrypha has prevailed. More than one synodical council… justified and authorized their use as Scripture… [even if it is true that] more than one highly respected ecclesiastical writer … being influenced by the great authority of Jerome, raised theoretical doubts about the disputed books. (Oxford Annotated Bible, 1977)

Joe would have us believe a well-respected textbook settles all dispute. No one in the field of education today would accept that statement.
It wasn’t until that assembly of the unlearned known as the Council of Trent that there was any dispute, then, in one of the great underwhelming votes of history, 25 aye, 15 nay, 16 abstain, they supposedly recognized what was supposedly known by all for a long time.
Actually, Joe and his friends, for his ideas are not original, are reading too much into the nays and the abstentions. Since we do not have a record of the reasons for their votes, it would be presumptious to say that these Bishops did not regard the deuterocannonical books as Scripture. Perhaps some wanted more books of the Apocrypha to be included? The canon that was affirmed at Trent had indeed been known for a long time as clear evidence demonstrate. The dispute arising from Jerome’s negative judgements (themselves being quite mixed and far from clear) muddles the situation, but then every truth that Christianity holds dear, from the divinity of Christ to the Incarnation, had at some point in time been disputed by different individuals. Arius almost won the whole Church over to his heretical ideas, but that doesn’t mean that the orthodox position was not known for a long time in the Church.
They supposedly set all the books equal, but while you do not hear it being rejected outright, you see the Catholic Church doing exactly that in practice, and so they are treated differently, called by a distinguishing name, and they really are not used as a source of doctrine. Oh you hear a couple of passages quoted about certain things, but they are weak at best, and the Orthodox who accept them as scripture disagree on the doctrines supposedly drawn by some from them.
I don’t know Joe, but as a Catholic, I am seriously offended by this last paragraph more than any other. I would have hoped you would do your homework better. The Catholic Church affirms that the deuterocannonical books are an integral part of the OT, and have the same authority and importance. We affirm that the Bible comprises the OT and NT, not OT, deuterocanonicals and NT. When Catholics refer to the OT, we always include the deuterocanonical books with the protocanonical books with no distinction. Out of respect for ecumenical dialogue, we do not object to editions of the Scriptures that separate the deuterocanonical books, but every edition of the Bible designed for Catholics leave all the books in their traditional order with no distinction. The term deuterocanonical was coined in the 16th century so that these books can be conveniently referred to without the Protestant baggage associated with Jerome’s term: Apocypha.

The Latin Church also uses the deuterocannonicals extensively in her liturgy. The books of Maccabees are read during Mass, as are the books of Tobit, Wisdom and Sirach. The canticle of the three Jews is used in the Liturgy of the Hours.

There are many possible ways of reading a single passage of Scripture, and it is possible to draw different lessons from the same dead text. Why, even Protestants draw diverse and incompatible teachings from the same Bible. For us Catholics, we affirm that Scripture and Tradition form one single deposit of the Word of God. We are sure that God guides the Magisterium to keep us true to the teachings of the Apostles, no matter how small the majority may be. Did not Jesus compare his Church to the mustard seed?
 
One can come up with different editorial but the thing that is really irrefutable is that the Roman Catholic Church made and used lots of bibles and references that made the distinction between the fully authoritative canonical books and the ecclesiatical canon of those books which were read in the churches.
I’m not even sure that the council of Trent’s decree was taken at first the way it is today. The Glossa ordinaria continued to be held in very high regard with all sorts of wonderful pious things being said about it. Seems strange for a reference that if you agreed with it you were supposed to be anathemized by the church. JJ
Use of these books do not always indicate a dumb acceptance of everything stated in it. Perhaps today’s generations of folks stray into this position when they accept everything they read from some website.

Wycliff’s Bibles continued to be used by Catholics even after they were condemned by the Church for their heretical notes. The texts that were good were used, while the heretical notes were disregarded.

There are some people, both Catholics and non-Catholics who disdain everything in a book because of one or two perceived weakness or error, whether imagined or real. The disdain of the RSV by evangelicals, the disdain of the NRSV by so-called conservatives etc come to mind. There are many more people, both Catholics and otherwise, who are able to bring out the strengths without condoning the weaknesses.
(Here’s the editorial) Unfortunately, in both the East, with the Septuagint, and the West with the Vulgate, both bibles basically became a superstitious icon and the people eventually contradicted the historical knowledge and accepted everything as fully canonical. Both were really the same thing one sees today with the KJonly or DRonly people, same tune, earlier verse.
Yes and no. But Joe, the Vulgate achieved its “idolatrous fame” only after the Council of Trent. Because Trent declared the Vulgate to be free from all doctrinal error, some gave it a cultic status, especially with the flood of modern translations. Even then, it came only gradually. Many folks tried their hand in revising and improving the Vulgate, including a botched attempt that the Jesuits happily resolved.
 
…the Vulgate achieved its “idolatrous fame” only after the Council of Trent. Because Trent declared the Vulgate to be free from all doctrinal error, some gave it a cultic status, especially with the flood of modern translations. Even then, it came only gradually.
peregrinus_sg - I like and agree with your last two posts, but don’t you think you’re soft-pedaling the influence of the Vulgate here? Maybe it’s the concept of “idolatry” only to which you are referring; which is, granted, an extreme (and wrong) response to Jerome’s work. But as a monumental achievement which reigned as the Bible for over a millennium, its importance and influence can hardly be overstated. Also, am I mistaken, or didn’t its evident superiority put the Old Latin texts in the shade very early on?
 
peregrinus_sg - I like and agree with your last two posts, but don’t you think you’re soft-pedaling the influence of the Vulgate here? Maybe it’s the concept of “idolatry” only to which you are referring; which is, granted, an extreme (and wrong) response to Jerome’s work. But as a monumental achievement which reigned as the Bible for over a millennium, its importance and influence can hardly be overstated. Also, am I mistaken, or didn’t its evident superiority put the Old Latin texts in the shade very early on?
Thank you for your comments Cranch.

The Vulgate is definitely a very important and venerable edition of the Holy Scriptures, and continues to be so. Apologies if it wasn’t clear.
 
As for setting them in a separate section and saying they are not scripture. Martin Luther didn’t really start that idea either. And of course when a translation is intended for the common people and not just the learned it’s easy to see why putting them in a separate section was important.

That was actually done as Martin Luther was working on his translation.
Actually Luther did start that. Are you aware of any Bibles before Luther’s translation that had the deutercanonical books in a separate section called “apocrypha?”

The Gutenberg Bible, printed in the 1400’s, included the 7 deuterocanonical books (Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, I & II Maccabees) among the OT canon. You can look at it online:
molcat1.bl.uk/treasures/gutenberg/search.asp
It wasn’t until that assembly of the unlearned known as the Council of Trent that there was any dispute, then, in one of the great underwhelming votes of history, 25 aye, 15 nay, 16 abstain, they supposedly recognized what was supposedly known by all for a long time.
The Council of Trent did nothing new. Just reaffirmed what had been decided in previous councils of Hippo, Carthage, and Florence.

This is from the ecumenical Council of Florence, convoked in the 1400’s:
ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#5
Most firmly it believes, professes and preaches that the one true God, Father, Son and holy Spirit, is the creator of all things that are, visible and invisible, who, when he willed it, made from his own goodness all creatures, both spiritual and corporeal, good indeed because they are made by the supreme good, but mutable because they are made from nothing, and it asserts that there is no nature of evil because every nature, in so far as it is a nature, is good. It professes that one and the same God is the author of the old and the new Testament — that is, the law and the prophets, and the gospel — since the saints of both testaments spoke under the inspiration of the same Spirit. It accepts and venerates their books, whose titles are as follows.
Five books of Moses, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, Esdras, Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Job, Psalms of David, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, namely Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi; two books of the Maccabees; the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; fourteen letters of Paul, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, two to the Thessalonians, to the Colossians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two letters of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; Acts of the Apostles; Apocalypse of John.
The Councils of Hippo and Carthage, from the late 4th century, had the same OT books that the Council of Florence had.

This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm
During the deliberations of the Council (of Trent) there never was any real question as to the reception of all the traditional Scripture. Neither–and this is remarkable–in the proceedings is there manifest any serious doubt of the canonicity of the disputed writings. In the mind of the Tridentine Fathers they had been virtually canonized, by the same decree of Florence, and the same Fathers felt especially bound by the action of the preceding ecumenical synod. The Council of Trent did not enter into an examination of the fluctuations in the history of the Canon. Neither did it trouble itself about questions of authorship or character of contents. **True to the practical genius of the Latin Church, it based its decision on immemorial tradition as manifested in the decrees of previous councils and popes, and liturgical reading, relying on traditional teaching and usage to determine a question of tradition. **The Tridentine catalogue has been given above.
The Protestant decision to exclude these 7 books from canonical Scripture is innovative and is inconsistent with Church tradition.
 
I’m not sure if the separate section was specifically labeled apocrypha, but there were both bibles that labeled them as noncanonical and that had a separate section, I’m just not sure that both occured in the same bible.

According to Bruce Metger in his “Introduction to the Apocrypha”, the Dominican, Santes Pagini published in 1528 his Latin traslation at Lyons called the Veteris et Novi Testamenti nova translatio.

It was an important translation. It divided the Old Testament into verses, the first time that was done. And it set the Apocrypha books in a separate section. I do not know if they were labelled.

Johannes Petreius in 1527 in his Latin translation followed the order of the Vulgate but did clearly label the Apocryphal books. In his introduction he said of them. ‘Libri Apocryphi, sive non Canonici, qui nusquam apud Hebraeos extant’

The Gutenberg Bible is a Vugate so it contained the books normally found there, I don’t know if it also included the introductions to the books which spelled out which books were apocryphal, and using that term.

And the Protestants did not exclude them but continued to use them as a part of the ecclesiatical canon, just as they had been used for a long time.

JJ
 
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