7 Sacraments vs Two,WHY

[Bill_Pick]

Cathloics have 7 Sacraments Baptism,confession,matrimory,holy orders and annointing of the sick. Forgot confirmaation
Protestant have Two Baptism and matrimony and I do not know what they are called,is this because they do not have Apostolic Succession or is it for another reason

 

[phoenix3212]

Yes, it is because they lack apostolic succession. Conversely, the Eastern Orthodox Churches have all the seven sacraments despite having separated from the Church.

 

[piouss11]

Mormons have only 1 Sacrament - Why?

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[SyCarl]

I cannot speak for all Protestants, but the Presbyterian Church in Canada recognizes two sacraments, baptism and communion. Now I know that you do not recognize our communion as valid but we believe that God does and that is what is important.

While we do not recognize the other 5 sacraments that the Catholic Church does as sacraments, that does not mean we do not practice them. We do have ordinations, matrimony, confirmation, and anointing the sick. Confession is usually done corporately but can be done individually as well. The exact form of things may not be the same as in the Catholic Church, and I know that you do not recognize their validity, but we do practice them.

 

[Christalone]

I cannot speak for all Protestants, but the Presbyterian Church in Canada recognizes two sacraments, baptism and communion. Now I know that you do not recognize our communion as valid but we believe that God does and that is what is important.

While we do not recognize the other 5 sacraments that the Catholic Church does as sacraments, that does not mean we do not practice them. We do have ordinations, matrimony, confirmation, and anointing the sick. Confession is usually done corporately but can be done individually as well. The exact form of things may not be the same as in the Catholic Church, and I know that you do not recognize their validity, but we do practice them.

The Baptist church also follows only two ordiances, and they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper, and yes we also as Sy has pointed out recognize others. Confession is made first to God and then to others, as God is the only mediator and the only one who can forgive us our sins.

.

 

[Bill_Pick]

The Baptist church also follows only two ordiances, and they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper, and yes we also as Sy has pointed out recognize others. Confession is made first to God and then to others, as God is the only mediator and the only one who can forgive us our sins.

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John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, “as the Father sent me, so I send you.” As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

John 20:22 - the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

John 20:23 - Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

 

[Christalone]

John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, “as the Father sent me, so I send you.” As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

John 20:22 - the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

John 20:23 - Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

As Christians we are all disciples of Christ.

The text makes this very clear

IMHO, only to those with blinders on, who only want to see what they want to see that which benefits themselves.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Cathloics have 7 Sacraments Baptism,confession,matrimory,holy orders and annointing of the sick. Forgot confirmaation
Protestant have Two Baptism and matrimony and I do not know what they are called,is this because they do not have Apostolic Succession or is it for another reason

Incorrect. The two sacraments are (1) baptism and (2) Eucharist/Holy Communion.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Incorrect. The two sacraments are (1) baptism and (2) Eucharist/Holy Communion.

do you know what is a ordiances. And yes I,m sorry for my error… In some church its Holy Communion( I<M now talking Baptist) Why do they call crakers and grape juice a ordiances. The Baptist church I have been to have crakers and grape juice,thats no diff then having coffee and milk

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Episcopalians have all 7 sacraments

 

[East_Anglican]

We have baptism and the Eucharist.

We had to limit it to two so we could spend a huge part of the last 500 years arguing amongst ourselves about them.

If we had kept all seven it would have been impossible.

 

[Eleve]

My understanding is that the two Sacraments recognized by most (non-Anglican) Protestants are those that Jesus himself discussed. The rest arose in later scripture and traditions, and so their status as Sacraments is not as clear-cut.

 

[JonNC]

Cathloics have 7 Sacraments Baptism,confession,matrimory,holy orders and annointing of the sick. Forgot confirmaation
Protestant have Two Baptism and matrimony and I do not know what they are called,is this because they do not have Apostolic Succession or is it for another reason

That would be the Catholic response to the issue. Without apostolic succession, only Baptism and Matrimony are possible.

For Lutherans, the standard for a sacrament are: instituted by Christ himself, a means of grace, includes a physical element (ex. water for baptism). Therefore, Baptism and the Eucharist, and The Augsburg Confession recognizes Confession and Holy Absolution.

Matrimony was instituted in the OT, Confirmation and Unction were not instituted by Christ specifically. While the Confessions don’t, I personally think an argument can be made for Holy Orders.
Jon

 

[1ke]

I believe the OP was speaking about the fact that the Catholic Church recognizes Baptism and Marriage among non-Catholics as valid. I do not believe he was referring to what sacraments the various non-Catholic ecclesial communities believe themselves to have, although his post was not very clear and is further confused by being posted on the Non-Catholic board.

So, to answer what I believe the OP’s question to be:

The Church teaches that Baptism is necessary for salvation and that, therefore, anyone can baptize out of necessity. The ordinary minister of Baptism is the priest, and then the deacon in some circumstances, and finally any person in cases of necessity. Those who are baptized in non-Catholic communities are baptized validly when they are baptized with water and in the Trinity. The Church settled this dispute in the mid-200s AD, regarding whether or not those baptized by heretics or schismatics must be “re-baptized” if they want to become Catholic. The Church answered that question “no.”

As for marriage, the priest is not the minister of the sacrament, he is the official witness for the Church. Therefore, the Catholic form of marriage only applies to Catholics. Non-Catholics can contract marriages, and if they are both baptized it is a sacrament. This is because the husband and wife confer the sacrament on each other, not the priest.

 

[JonNC]

I believe the OP was speaking about the fact that the Catholic Church recognizes Baptism and Marriage among non-Catholics as valid. I do not believe he was referring to what sacraments the various non-Catholic ecclesial communities believe themselves to have, although his post was not very clear and is further confused by being posted on the Non-Catholic board.

So, to answer what I believe the OP’s question to be:

The Church teaches that Baptism is necessary for salvation and that, therefore, anyone can baptize out of necessity. The ordinary minister of Baptism is the priest, and then the deacon in some circumstances, and finally any person in cases of necessity. Those who are baptized in non-Catholic communities are baptized validly when they are baptized with water and in the Trinity. The Church settled this dispute in the mid-200s AD, regarding whether or not those baptized by heretics or schismatics must be “re-baptized” if they want to become Catholic. The Church answered that question “no.”

As for marriage, the priest is not the minister of the sacrament, he is the official witness for the Church. Therefore, the Catholic form of marriage only applies to Catholics. Non-Catholics can contract marriages, and if they are both baptized it is a sacrament. This is because the husband and wife confer the sacrament on each other, not the priest.

1ke,
I appreciate the the post, and have a question. Lutherans and Catholics agree that Baptism is necessary for salvation. I have heard Catholics here say that, based on John 6, the Eucharist is also necessary for salvation. Is that your take on Church teaching?
Jon

 

[1ke]

1ke,
I appreciate the the post, and have a question. Lutherans and Catholics agree that Baptism is necessary for salvation. I have heard Catholics here say that, based on John 6, the Eucharist is also necessary for salvation. Is that your take on Church teaching?
Jon

Short answer: All the Sacraments are necessary. They are the means by which we receive sanctifying grace. In the same way, the Church is necessary, because we receive the Sacraments through her.

So, in answering your question I think it depends on what, precisely, is meant by “necessary.”

Baptism is necessary, because it is the means by which we receive regeneration and incorporation into the Body of Christ. It is the ordinary means by which we are incorporated into God’s family and receive sanctifying grace.

However, even while acknowledging that Baptism is *necessary *in order to be admitted to the Beatific Vision, the Church does not preclude God working in an *extraordinary *way that He has not revealed to us. While Just, God is also Mercy. So, certainly the Church takes up the discussion of how this works in practice regarding those who had no opportunity to hear the gospel, or those in invincible ignorance, or those who die below the age of reason who have no personal sins but whose parents did not initiate baptism for them.

*1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. *

As the means by which we receive grace, I would say all seven sacraments are “necessary” and in the same way the Church is “necessary.” They are the means established by Christ for us to receive grace and be united to him. Baptism has a different character, because without Baptism we can receive no other Sacrament. The Holy Spirit indwells when we are baptized. Before baptism, our souls have a different character.

I don’t believe the Sacraments are “necessary” in the sense that members of non-Catholic ecclesial communities who lack valid sacraments somehow are damned because they do not participate in the Eucharist or the other Sacraments.

I don’t believe there is anything in Church teaching that would back up such an assertion. Certainly I believe that those who lack the Sacraments lack the *fullest means of sanctification *offered by Christ through his Church.

 

[JonNC]

=1ke;5327165]Short answer: All the Sacraments are necessary. They are the means by which we receive sanctifying grace. In the same way, the Church is necessary, because we receive the Sacraments through her.

Aside from our communions’ current differences regarding the validity of Lutheran orders, I would agree with this, even when talking about Confirmation and Matrimony, which Lutherans don’t consider sacraments by our definition.

So, in answering your question I think it depends on what, precisely, is meant by “necessary.”

Baptism is necessary, because it is the means by which we receive regeneration and incorporation into the Body of Christ. It is the ordinary means by which we are incorporated into God’s family and receive sanctifying grace.

However, even while acknowledging that Baptism is *necessary *in order to be admitted to the Beatific Vision, the Church does not preclude God working in an *extraordinary *way that He has not revealed to us. While Just, God is also Mercy. So, certainly the Church takes up the discussion of how this works in practice regarding those who had no opportunity to hear the gospel, or those in invincible ignorance, or those who die below the age of reason who have no personal sins but whose parents did not initiate baptism for them.

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

Yes. This is what I meant, and I agree.

As the means by which we receive grace, I would say all seven sacraments are “necessary” and in the same way the Church is “necessary.” They are the means established by Christ for us to receive grace and be united to him. Baptism has a different character, because without Baptism we can receive no other Sacrament. The Holy Spirit indwells when we are baptized. Before baptism, our souls have a different character.

I don’t believe the Sacraments are “necessary” in the sense that members of non-Catholic ecclesial communities who lack valid sacraments somehow are damned because they do not participate in the Eucharist or the other Sacraments.

I don’t believe there is anything in Church teaching that would back up such an assertion. Certainly I believe that those who lack the Sacraments lack the *fullest means of sanctification *offered by Christ through his Church.

I think it is interesting to note that in the recent round of dialogue between our communions here in America, they discussed this very issue, with a charity toward each other similar to what you use here.
usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

Obviously, Lutherans are not willing to concede the validity of our orders and sacraments, while in fact recognizing yours. Of the remaining issues between us, however, Orders and the numbering sacraments may be 2 of the most easily resolved.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Jon

 

[East_Anglican]

Article XXV: Of the Sacraments
Sacraments ordained of Christ be not only badges or tokens of Christian men’s profession, but rather they be certain sure witnesses, and effectual signs of grace, and God’s good will towards us, by the which he doth work invisibly in us, and doth not only quicken, but also strengthen and confirm our Faith in him.

There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord.

Those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel, being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures; but yet have not like nature of Sacraments with Baptism, and the Lord’s Supper, for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God.

The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them. And in such only as worthily receive the same have they a wholesome effect or operation: but they that receive them unworthily purchase to themselves damnation, as Saint Paul saith.

 

[gcnuss]

Short answer: All the Sacraments are necessary. They are the means by which we receive sanctifying grace. In the same way, the Church is necessary, because we receive the Sacraments through her.

[snip]

As the means by which we receive grace, I would say all seven sacraments are “necessary” and in the same way the Church is “necessary.” They are the means established by Christ for us to receive grace and be united to him. Baptism has a different character, because without Baptism we can receive no other Sacrament. The Holy Spirit indwells when we are baptized. Before baptism, our souls have a different character.

Just a thought, and correct me if I’m wrong. It seems to me that the “necessity” of the seven sacraments is not universal. For instance, women are not permitted to receive the sacrament of orders. At the same time, with a few exceptions, men can receive either orders or matrimony, but not both. Would it be correct to say that all seven sacraments are necessities for the church but not for individuals?