8 Simple Rules for dating a Duggar Daughter

[DarkLight]

Supposing a Duggar girl wants to dedicate her life to God by remaining single and serving others, as a Catholic nun does? Is that even an option for her? I know they’re not Catholic themselves, but still… you would figure that any Christian would recognize that there are more ways to live than just being a baby factory. What if a Duggar girl is infertile, what then? If all of her worth has been concentrated towards that, what then?

HoosierDaddy was talking about the problematic use of the word “brainwashing.” I don’t think teaching people (especially young ones), trying to influence them and teach them, etc. constitutes brainwashing. Because if it did, then brainwashing would mean basically nothing.

Maybe we can come up with a better definition of brainwashing. When I’ve seen movies like Jesus Camp, or documentaries about radical Islam or the white power movement, that stuff does not seem to me like the same thing that the average Christian/Catholic/other parent does to their children. It seems to involve permanent infantilization, not only can the subject not accept other worldviews, it’s best that he/she doesn’t even know they exist. He/she is not permitted to question in order to gain better understanding, he/she must simply accept what he/she is told no matter what. Brainwashing, it seems to me, is a rejection of all reason and of all discourse. And, since we were given minds to reason by God, brainwashing would be a rejection of God.

Unfortunately there are things that go on at the very least in the movements that the Duggars are associated with, that could very easily qualify as brainwashing.

They endorse both the Pearl’s ideology and that of Bill Gothard. Both of these promote the idea of instant obedience in a way where a child should never even think to question a parent. The Gothards at least promote the idea that any sort of seeds of rebellion - even simple things like having questions about faith - could cause damage to the whole family. That is coming perilously close to brainwashing, at the very least. It teaches that the merest question of authority or of the faith you’ve been taught is letting the Devil himself in to your life and to your family’s life.

 

[Rau]

Hmmmm

Do you believe sex before marriage is moral or immoral?
Do you think that having more than 12 kids is unhealthy spiritually and emotionally?

“Waiting until marriage to have sex and having more than a dozen kids does not make a couple healthy spiritually or emotionally.”

The above statement from Sailor28 seems entirely uncontroversial.

 

[Xantippe]

I love rules like these.

They are to me, what firewalls and systems are to a hacker.

I’d love to see you go toe-to-toe with Jim Bob.

They moved the most recent fiance onto the property into a guest house to do the following:

”Ben was living four hours away in Hot Springs (Arkansas) with his parents. After Michelle and I were talking about it, we have so many projects to do that we need help for – everything from construction projects to keeping the grass mowed to putting roof on a building, paperwork and things like that – and we asked him if he would be interested in moving up here so that Jessa and his relationship could be really accelerated. He was all for it and his parents were happy about it.”

people.com/article/ben-seewald-moves-in-jessa-duggar-video

It sounds like Jacob working for Rachel, but on a more accelerated schedule.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

“Waiting until marriage to have sex and having more than a dozen kids does not make a couple healthy spiritually or emotionally.”

The above statement from Sailor28 seems entirely uncontroversial.

All I did was ask a question. A clarification. It may be completely uncontroversial.

Of course number one seemed a little controversial didn’t it? But it is pointless to debate until it is clarified.

 

[DarkLight]

The other thing I would say is that they subscribe to an emotional purity teaching that is frankly guilt-producing because it’s impossible. Again, this is something I grew up with - it basically makes normal, healthy attraction into something you’re guilty for having towards a man not your husband. A simple teenaged crush is akin to adultery. Friendships between men and women are treated as quite simply impossible. There’s a heavy pressure to marry to keep from sinning because sin is defined so broadly as liking a member of the opposite sex. This is combined with a mentality that treats those who haven’t lived up to it - especially women - as damaged goods.

And for a lot of people I’ve found that leads as much to despair and unchastity as anything.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

At least you are putting all us fathers on warning…

I’d love to see you go toe-to-toe with Jim Bob.

Do not underestimate the powers of the Dark Side!

Now lesee, who do I consult for these sorts of challenges… I’ve got Sith Lords, Master Cthulhu, Beelzeboss, Archduke Amon…

On a more serious note, I’m proud to say I’m not the only guy I know who has seen the challenge posed by Duggar-style families. But by challenge, I certainly don’t mean impossible. (Quite the opposite in fact, if my pals are to be believed.)

It sounds like Jacob working for Rachel, but on a more accelerated schedule.

And fewer wives.

But in all seriousness, I’d definitely have a more ‘backdoor’ approach to every member of this family. Not just the girls. Getting involved with them sounds like a major risk of getting indoctrinated no matter what your agenda is. I wonder if 'ol Jim’s got another set of rules for being his business partner. :hey_bud:

 

[ToeInTheWater]

The other thing I would say is that they subscribe to an emotional purity teaching that is frankly guilt-producing because it’s impossible. Again, this is something I grew up with - it basically makes normal, healthy attraction into something you’re guilty for having towards a man not your husband. A simple teenaged crush is akin to adultery. Friendships between men and women are treated as quite simply impossible. There’s a heavy pressure to marry to keep from sinning because sin is defined so broadly as liking a member of the opposite sex. This is combined with a mentality that treats those who haven’t lived up to it - especially women - as damaged goods.

And for a lot of people I’ve found that leads as much to despair and unchastity as anything.

Yes, apparently “Courtship” advocates in general believe that a young person needs to “guard her heart” (or his, but certainly this “emotional purity” is MUCH more emphasized for a girl) and should NOT have romantic feelings for anyone except her eventual husband. Their ideal is for a person to be involved in a grand total of ONE romantic relationship, ever.

Often, dating (even chaste dating) is denigrated as nothing more than serial monogamy that supposedly conditions those who date into seeing all romantic relationships as temporary, and increases the risk of divorce. Some Courtship advocates believe that one should actually not totally allow oneself to completely fall in love until AFTER the wedding.

Well, this attitude to me seems to go way beyond ensuring chaste courtships. It strikes me as very close to the idea that romantic love is actually merely an illusion born out of lust (I even recall a CAF poster arguing this). That being the case, supposedly, romance should therefore be totally disregarded, and instead one should coolly evaluate a potential spouse based on “objective” criteria such as “character”, religious faith, potential as a parent, etc. Very close to traditional approaches to arranged marriage.

Now, the Duggars, at least on the surface, don’t seem to go as far as to say “romance doesn’t matter”, but the fact that they were so keen to have a 19 year old man/boy marry their 22 year old daughter makes me think they DO believe in this “first relationship = only relationship” ideal. As they themselves married when Michelle was 17 and Jim Bob 19, I suppose they may simply be holding up their own relationship as an ideal. But even this is not quite the same as what they expect for their children, for although they married young, they did both go to college and actually did use birth control in the early years of their marriage.

 

[Walking_Home]

Hmmmm

Do you believe sex before marriage is moral or immoral?
Do you think that having more than 12 kids is unhealthy spiritually and emotionally?

---

Below is by a Trad woman at a “Traditionalist” site. It is not the first time I’ve read in “Trad” sites-- of women driven to physical/mental exhaustion/collapse.

But…I do know personally some trad men who expect way too much from their wives. My best friend has, on more than one occasion, become ill from having so much to do. Add to that, the extreme fecundity of most trad women I know. It is really hard when you have a 3 month old, have to homeschool 5 children, cook, clean, AND are 2 months pregnant.
…

Some trad men see their women as baby making machines or primarily tools for their pleasure—like they can spit out a kid, lick off its umbilical cord, mop a few floors, cook three meals, feed the baby and satisfy their needs all at the same time.

 

[masondoggy]

I do think that the more critical approach to Duggars among Catholics, and perhaps conservative Christians in general, is due to the fact that 10 years ago, when they were first featured on TV, all the children were still underage, and parenting approaches that could be considered reasonable for children and teenagers, are not quite as reasonable for grown adults.

Bingo

 

[jmcrae]

Hmmmm

Do you believe sex before marriage is moral or immoral?

Immoral. Being friends, however, is not - and friendship requires a certain amount of privacy to develop, as well. I’m sure you spend time with friends without your parents or their spies lurking over your shoulder, and you have personal conversations with them about things that are no one else’s business.

Do you think that having more than 12 kids is unhealthy spiritually and emotionally?

Actually part of the point of having that many kids is in order to be free to let go of them and set them free to make their own mistakes. Ordinarily, the fifth-born child doesn’t go through life with his hand being held all the time, because all four hands are already occupied. That’s healthy.

 

[Xantippe]

Immoral. Being friends, however, is not - and friendship requires a certain amount of privacy to develop, as well. I’m sure you spend time with friends without your parents or their spies lurking over your shoulder, and you have personal conversations with them about things that are no one else’s business.

For instance, what you both really think about both sets of parents.

 

[Holly3278]

Wow. Thank God I’m not a Duggar Daughter.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

---

Below is by a Trad woman at a “Traditionalist” site. It is not the first time I’ve read in “Trad” sites-- of women driven to physical/mental exhaustion/collapse.

Of course that is unhealthy. But certainly the number of children one has is not the indicator of unhealthy spirituality. inequality seems to be the killer there.

The number of children be it 1 or 21 is not the problem.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I agree that in my own parenting I would not want my kids to marry someone they had not been friends with and known for a while. But many in today’s society make babies with others without really knowing them. Daytime TV is filled with such poor choices. And certainly other cultures have been known to arrange marriages and have it work out well. There are posters on CAF who married after only really knowing someone digitally. And dating sites are sometimes just mechanized Jim Bobs anyway. Honestly these kids all learn a trade, have skills, Love the Lord, keep a moral code, and yet do all of that while at the mercy of fame and a culture that destroys many of us. And the children seem to enjoy thier mates. Josh certainly is following in his father’s footsteps politically.

I must say again, The make out pictures that have been on instagram have given me pause. Jimbob and Michelle had one today. The ones of the newlyweds kind of remind me of abercrombie photoshoots for some reason. And the consummation of the marriage at the Church was odd too. I grew up in Mormon land so it was not too shocking for me. That being said, many a couple has engaged in relations at weddings. Married or not. And they are not as sheltered as what some people seem to think the duggars represent. On social media they are quite savvy and I must say, things can get downright vile on the comment sections. They handle it better than I would.

 

[Walking_Home]

Of course that is unhealthy. But certainly the number of children one has is not the indicator of unhealthy spirituality. inequality seems to be the killer there.

---

What it does bring to light-- is that a large number of children-- can be the result of unhealthy spirituality.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

---

What it does bring to light-- is that a large number of children-- can be the result of unhealthy spirituality.

So can suicide. or radical political movements that engage in terror. honestly think it is unfair to suggest that large families are indicators of problems.

it is one of the reasons I have felt unwelcome at CAF sometimes. But, I sure don’t subscribe to any group or movement. I think there is a stigma that deserved or not, we should try to recognize and weed out.

 

[sailor28]

Let’s just say that it’s possible to be a virgin at marriage and have 13 kids and be an abusive parent who makes their kids hate God.

Just being a virgin at marriage and the parent of a large family is not some sort of express route to heaven.

I think that’s more or less what was meant.

Yes exactly. I’m surprised the direction that was being taken. Hoosier Daddy my experience with you in threads is that you don’t hear well. I can tell by your interactions with others it is not just my experience.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes exactly. I’m surprised the direction that was being taken. Hoosier Daddy my experience with you in threads is that you don’t hear well. I can tell by your interactions with others it is not just my experience.

Sailor. Please keep the personal attacks and observations charitable. You do not have much experience with me in threads. Xantippe does.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

The number of children be it 1 or 21 is not the problem.

It can be a factor. Having a close encounter with an actual large family that’s downright, Third World poor taught me that much.

 

[masondoggy]

So can suicide. or radical political movements that engage in terror. honestly think it is unfair to suggest that large families are indicators of problems.

it is one of the reasons I have felt unwelcome at CAF sometimes. But, I sure don’t subscribe to any group or movement. I think there is a stigma that deserved or not, we should try to recognize and weed out.

I don’t think the problem is with having large families. The problem is when a couple, especially a women, is pressured into having a large family because it’s “God’s will” even when it’s not in their best interest or something they can personally handle. The Quiverful movement believes that NOTHING should be done to prevent a pregnancy and that a woman cannot say no to her husband. She* is* essentially a baby-making machine, even if a pregnancy can be dangerous to her health.

This is not Catholic teaching. Catholic teaching allows couples the freedom to discern what is best for their situation and allows them to use NFP to prevent a pregnancy when needed.

In one situation a couple is essentially given no choice but to have a large family, whether it’s something they can handle or not, the other situation allows a couple to have the size of family that’s right for* them*.