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petitfleur
Guest
You don’t need to read any of them but invite her and some friends over to watch “Pride and Predjudice” and cook a nice meal.
It has to be the good version though, the one with Colin Firth.
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It has to be the good version though, the one with Colin Firth.
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masondoggy
Guest
I just have to say that after this long, drawn out discussion, it really makes me appreciate the wisdom and guidance in the teachings of the Catholic Church, especially when it comes to human sexuality, marriage, and the dignity of both men and women.
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petitfleur
Guest
Translation: I am not going to let you try and be the nice guy in this situation. I will find some way to belittle your peace offering, and find reasons to be offended when none were meant.
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Estevao
Guest
Duly noted thanksYou don’t need to read any of them but invite her and some friends over to watch “Pride and Predjudice” and cook a nice meal.
It has to be the good version though, the one with Colin Firth.
W
WildCatholic
Guest
Okay so being a dude, I think some of these rules are a little silly. Though Some are not bad
Silly Rules:
2. The Chaperone rule is a little silly. Yes I know that it’s important to keep chaste on a date but my goodness a chaperone? I mean I would hope that you would have communicated enough by the first date to know each others values and what is okay and what is not.
Silly Rules:
2. The Chaperone rule is a little silly. Yes I know that it’s important to keep chaste on a date but my goodness a chaperone? I mean I would hope that you would have communicated enough by the first date to know each others values and what is okay and what is not.
- The No PDA rules is a little silly too. Actually maybe this should be a rule but only for the first month or two for dating. Not that I want to be inappropriate but I think other PDA’s are okay after a while
- Holding hands only when engaged is crazy. Now once again I think maybe if you are doing this too early in the relationship it wouldn’t be cool but my goodness, only if you are engaged? What about people who date for 4 or 5 years but aren’t engaged for 3 of those?
- The CC’d thing is way too controlling. I understand there is that idea that you want to keep your kids safe but I would think that in the Duggars case you aren’t going to have problems with this. I’m surprised they haven’t have a daughter rebel already
- No Alcohol is just dumb. I would hope most people could control themselves. I think a better rule might be to have one of the couple be the DD or if its a situation where they both drink make sure its with others…
- This is a hard one to disagree with but what does Jim Bob mean by kissing? I mean no kissing at all before the wedding? I agree that making out or anything like that would be wrong but none at all?
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ethereality
Guest
Holy cow, some of these rules are creepy from how controlling and imposing they are. Simply put, “dad” and “dictator” are two different words for a reason.
Should a daughter consult her father regarding a potential marriage? Yes, of course. Should the man be required to obtain his permission prior to spending time with her? That is absurd.
The element missing here is trust (e.g. respect for one’s cognitive abilities) and openness (where information would be freely shared), a mark of a genuine relationship between parent and child. These rules suggest to me a deep-seated problem in the parents’ relationship with their children.
Should a daughter consult her father regarding a potential marriage? Yes, of course. Should the man be required to obtain his permission prior to spending time with her? That is absurd.
The element missing here is trust (e.g. respect for one’s cognitive abilities) and openness (where information would be freely shared), a mark of a genuine relationship between parent and child. These rules suggest to me a deep-seated problem in the parents’ relationship with their children.
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WildCatholic
Guest
Like I said, i’m surprised none of the girls has rebelled, unless Jim Bob has a mean and abusive side we don’t know about (not to suggest he does but that is how some guys might keep control of their family)
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Xantippe
Guest
All of them–there are only six. And you are correct that bright women often love Jane Austen.
I’ll summarize quickly.
Sense and Sensibility: There are two sisters, one older and sensible, the other younger and very romantic. The older one has been disappointed in love, but is trying to pull herself together and carry on. The sister’s relationship is strained by the fact that the younger one is being both secretive and indiscreet about her relationship with a young man. The younger sister is acting as though she’s engaged, but is she? And is he what he seems to be?
Pride and Prejudice: The one that a zillion filmed versions have been made of. On the one hand, that means it’s been done to death, but on the other hand, that’s because it’s really good. Anyway, Elizabeth Bennet has incompatible parents: an intelligent but lazy father and a hysterical, hypochondriac, stupid mother. Elizabeth is one of 5 daughters who have more or less brought themselves up. Because there are no boys in the family, the family property is going to go to a cousin. There’s practically no money saved for dowries and the girls are under a lot of pressure from their mother to marry as best as they can. The five sisters are: witty Elizabeth, sweet, good, pretty Jane, pedantic, plodding Mary and flighty Kitty and Lydia.
Mansfield Park: Fanny Price is a poor relative (one of a large, struggling family), growing up with her rich cousins, but on very unequal terms. She’s very conscientious, but not brilliant or witty or fashionable. Naturally, she’s in love with her younger male cousin who hopes to be an Anglican priest, but he is under the spell of a pretty new neighbor. Meanwhile, Fanny’s cousin Maria’s engagement-of-convenience to rich Mr. Rushworth is coming unraveled.
Emma: Emma, a rich young woman who is kind, but more clever than wise, schemes to marry off her friends and neighbors, not realizing that quite a number of them have schemes and secrets of their own.
Northanger Abbey: 17-year-old Catherine, an insatiable reader of gothic novels, gets a trip with family friends to fashionable Bath. She finds love and things seem to be going well, but just as in her favorite reading material, there are some unsettling surprises with regard to several of her new friends.
Persuasion: 8 years previously, as a 19-year-old, Anne Eliot obeyed her aristocratic family’s wishes and broke an engagement with a dashing but poor naval officer. Now, she is 27, never married, and he is back in her neighborhood, rich from the wars, and furiously courting two of her young relatives by marriage (her sister’s sisters-in-law).
One of the great things about Jane Austen is that she has such a variety of heroines (age, situation, and character) and such a variety of comic characters. It’s very good training for young men to learn that women aren’t a solid, undifferentiated mass, but that each one has a particular personality, and that the differences are VERY important. I also like the novels that focus on the young heroine’s need to learn to read the people around her.
It’s hard to know which to recommend reading first. If you’re too familiar with Pride and Prejudice’s plot and characters without having read it, maybe save it for later? They’re all really good, but Sense and Sensibility might be a good entry point.
Edited to add: Another virtue of Austen for the guys is that they make it pretty clear that women also have unrequited loves, and that it’s no picnic waiting for the man you love to notice that you exist.
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DarkLight
Guest
That’s what I was trying to say earlier - with the right sort of setup you don’t need to physically abuse a child to have a scary level of control. Keeping children sheltered enough that they don’t have any tools to deal with the outside world, then threatening to cut them off completely if they don’t obey, is a powerful tool. In a family with so much time spent around your brothers and sisters, so is threatening to forbid them from seeing any child still in the house.
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
I’m surprised the man hasn’t started creating his own cult…
… then again, isn’t this how most cults start out?
Step 1. Create a large family
Step 2. Keep that family glued together through some subtle or overt form of intimidation.
Step 3. Proceed to brainwash anyone else who comes in via marriage.
Not hoping to be right here but I can’t shake off the parallels I’m seeing.
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petitfleur
Guest
Look up Bill Gothard and Doug Phillips. He is “the man in charge” there are tons of fMilies like the Duggars out there. They are all under the Gothard umbrella.I’m surprised the man hasn’t started creating his own cult…
… then again, isn’t this how most cults start out?
Step 1. Create a large family
Step 2. Keep that family glued together through some subtle or overt form of intimidation.
Step 3. Proceed to brainwash anyone else who comes in via marriage.
Not hoping to be right here but I can’t shake off the parallels I’m seeing.
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Estevao
Guest
Wow thanks so much! I guess I know what I’m reading for this month…
K
Kindness
Guest
(I read almost the entire thread but skipped a couple of pages so this may already have been mentioned)
Jim-Bob is the one who effectively picks the men his daughters will marry. Jill’s husband Derrick was someone he worked with and decided to set up with Jill. The 19 year old was also someone Jim-Bob decided should be introduced to his younger daughter. These girls are so extremely sheltered and separated that they are not having any chance to freely choose their spouses. For us this would be grounds for annulment. Free will and free choice, especially regarding who you are going to spend the rest of your life with is essential in Catholic theology, belief and life. The girls as they become young adults are excessively monitored and controlled. Jim-Bob and Michelle had much more freedom as teenagers and young people. The way Michelle deliberately sits with this bizarre look of adoration on her face when Jim-Bob is talking does not seem healthy. It is a very self-conscious and concerned with image in a way that definitely doesn’t appear natural. I consider myself to be very happily married and my husband and I are very respectful of each other but we also give each other lots of freedom to be ourselves and express ourselves.
The man whose teachings they follow has been accused of being abusive to the daughters of families such as the Duggards who were sent to “Headquarters” to work as interns. These young women could not protect themselves as they have been taught to worship this man and also to be submissive and sweet at all times.
Jim-Bob is the one who effectively picks the men his daughters will marry. Jill’s husband Derrick was someone he worked with and decided to set up with Jill. The 19 year old was also someone Jim-Bob decided should be introduced to his younger daughter. These girls are so extremely sheltered and separated that they are not having any chance to freely choose their spouses. For us this would be grounds for annulment. Free will and free choice, especially regarding who you are going to spend the rest of your life with is essential in Catholic theology, belief and life. The girls as they become young adults are excessively monitored and controlled. Jim-Bob and Michelle had much more freedom as teenagers and young people. The way Michelle deliberately sits with this bizarre look of adoration on her face when Jim-Bob is talking does not seem healthy. It is a very self-conscious and concerned with image in a way that definitely doesn’t appear natural. I consider myself to be very happily married and my husband and I are very respectful of each other but we also give each other lots of freedom to be ourselves and express ourselves.
The man whose teachings they follow has been accused of being abusive to the daughters of families such as the Duggards who were sent to “Headquarters” to work as interns. These young women could not protect themselves as they have been taught to worship this man and also to be submissive and sweet at all times.
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Rau
Guest
One of the daughters acknowledged in an interview that courting is an evaluation period, not a commitment to marry, therefore it may break-up. It will be interesting to see if this happens, and if so how it is handled.
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Robyn_p
Guest
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severus68
Guest
That is not what WH said. WH said “can”.So can suicide. or radical political movements that engage in terror. honestly think it is unfair to suggest that large families are indicators of problems.
it is one of the reasons I have felt unwelcome at CAF sometimes. But, I sure don’t subscribe to any group or movement.
I have not seen any post where disparaging remarks were made about the size of your family so no need to feel unwelcome. No one is against large families per se. I think the Duggar parents have capitalised on the number of children they have
Parents should teach their children the right things, prepare a strong foundation for them and then set them free when adult. They have a right to be their own persons and to have choices. It is amusing to hear them make statements like robots.
Give me the Roloffs any time.
B
BlueEyedLady
Guest
You don’t need to read any of them but invite her and some friends over to watch “Pride and Predjudice” and cook a nice meal.
It has to be the good version though, the one with Colin Firth.
- I agree, there’s no need to read them. I just wasn’t looking for a Jane Austin fan as a husband. It wouldn’t have been a drawback, but it wasn’t a selling point. I like well read men in general though.
- I love your date idea! The only thing I would suggest is leaving the friends out of it. Most men aren’t going to be into a home cooked meal and Jane Austin. And if he does this with a group of girls, the one he actually likes might just think he sees her as another friend. But one on on one this would be charming! Even though I’m not really into P&P myself, I would get that the guy is trying and be very flattered and impressed.
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WildCatholic
Guest
True. Also I don’t think we should necessarily label the Duggar parents as these crazy control freaks. It obviously is a part of their faith and if they want to manifest it in this way than that is their right. The sad thing is people will say they are Christian (Which I have no doubt they are) and say that its okay, much like people of all denominations jumped on (and still practice) the whole courtship idea from “I kissed dating goodbye” and take it too extremes.
And one more thing, I think I asked this earlier, but does the dad expect his daughters to practice this even if they are past 25 or 30. I couldn’t imagine having to go through this as a man having to ask dad if I can date her. If I was 16 yes but not at say 28. Granted he’s probably got suitors in mind for his daughters
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masondoggy
Guest
Well, we don’t know if any of the kids have rebelled yet, but I’m sure if they did we wouldn’t see it on the show. I think that the Duggar parents probably have editing rights written into their contract. It’s obvious to me that from their perspective, the show’s purpose is to evangelize and they do make sure to put on a good face for the camera.
One of their boys was recently sent to a “boot camp” and I have read that is a place where rebellious kids are sent to get them in line. This came from somebody who left the movement, not just some random accusation on a news comment section. So i think it’s entirely possible that some of the kids are rebelling but I’m sure they’re very good about hiding it.
Wow, that is the perfect way of putting it. They do sound like robots, especially Jill whenever she’s being interviewed. I’ve always thought it was creepy.
Again, what I have heard from someone who left, it is very common for these girls in this movement to become old spinsters living at home. They have no choice but to sit around and wait for a suitor to ask daddy to court. Often times it never happens for them and they continue to live under daddy’s roof, even into their 30’s and 40’s. Even the “good looking” girls.
I just find that so sad and infuriating.
- Status