9/11 Jumpers -- was what they did a sin?

[Hendrick]

Sorry, but the original poster had a valid question. Were there Catholics who jumped? Did they have time to consider all the consequences? Did they make peace with God before jumping? What were their thoughts before jumping? For some there may have been a moral delimma and right or wrong to some the question of sin may have entered their minds.

 

[Rascalking]

Excuse me, but do you know what the benefit of hindsight is? We talk about this from our homes, which we’re not hit by an airplane. Our computers are not melting right now. We don’t have to call our loved ones to say good bye.

I’m not saying don’t ask, I’m saying be very careful.

 

[yellowbird]

In my humble opinion, the thread title alone is painful & disturbing for anyone who still grieves over a loved one who died on that horrific day.

They were someone’s mother, father, child, sister, brother, dear friend. Please don’t reduce them to the “9/11 Jumpers.”

 

[Ponyguy]

Why are we even remotely trying to judge those poor souls? They had absolutely no real chance regardless of the way they acted.

May the Almighty One have mercy upon them and grant them a soft, fuzzy place to spend eternity. And may the Almighty One see to it that the hijackers are properly handled. Period.

Dilemma:
Choose one:
1.) Slide down a razor-topped banister into a vat of alcohol.
2.) Suck on an elephant’s trunk until he collapses flat.

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

then ask a question about end of life decisions and euthanasia, do not by implication accuse people who are dead and cannot defend themselves of suicide, which is what this and the other threads amount to.

Where did I ACCUSE them of it?

Show me my accusation, I’ll put up an apology. If not, go post somewhere else to people stupid enough to listen to your lecturing. I’m tired of your attitude.

Did you notice that your post is the one that brought up the emotional level on this thread? Yet you accuse me of being incendiary. Welcome to my block list.

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

In my humble opinion, the thread title alone is painful & disturbing for anyone who still grieves over a loved one who died on that horrific day.

They were someone’s mother, father, child, sister, brother, dear friend. Please don’t reduce them to the “9/11 Jumpers.”

In an article published 2 September 2002, USA Today used the same word. This is what became the widely-used term for it.

I see your point, but I couldn’t think up a better word at the time.

 

[yellowbird]

In an article published 2 September 2002, USA Today used the same word. This is what became the widely-used term for it.

I see your point, but I couldn’t think up a better word at the time.

I know you didn’t mean any disrespect - and the subject is an interesting one.

I didn’t see the USA Today article… I would’ve cringed at it as well. Maybe I’m still emotionally too raw. As a previous poster suggested, it’s still such a touchy subject.

I don’t fault you though… just voicing my humble opinion.

God bless.

 

[Shiranui117]

I’ll second what a lot of other people said; it was either the fire or the fall. A horrible, burning and suffocating death, or a horrific freefall to hard concrete far below. No one should have ever been forced to make the decision, and no one ever again should have to make a similar choice. That being said, death was inevitable; the only difference was a quick death, or a slow one. There was the option of, perhaps, clinging to the wall, then trying to find a grip after falling down a story or so, grabbing a ledge, then repeating the process, but the odds of it were astronomical. Astronomical odds, or no odds at all was the terrible, malicious choice.

May God grant them peace and eternal rest in the presence of His Love. :byzsoc:

 

[yellowbird]

May God grant them peace and eternal rest in the presence of His Love. :byzsoc:

Amen.

And may our enemies who continue to plot to destroy innocent lives be filled with the love of Jesus and turn from their wicked evil ways.

And may God have mercy on us all.

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

I know you didn’t mean any disrespect - and the subject is an interesting one.

I didn’t see the USA Today article… I would’ve cringed at it as well. Maybe I’m still emotionally too raw. As a previous poster suggested, it’s still such a touchy subject.

I don’t fault you though… just voicing my humble opinion.

God bless.

This is the article
usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-02-jumper_x.htm
It is not a comfortable article to read; I’m not suggesting that you read it, but I thought I’d post it up anyway to show that as late as a year after the attack, the word “jump” was already being used. I find it in bad taste that they had the pictures up, but maybe it had the point to really illustrate how horrible the whole thing was (like I said, morality and isn’t always going to be an easy subject).

The word “jump” (or words derived thereof) is used 25 times, though two of those times it has to do with the New York Medical Examiner’s office saying that they did not classify them as “jumpers” and considers their deaths to be homicide too.

I did read around on the topic before I posted up here, and “jump” was the unfortunately-widely used word that was used.

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

That being said, death was inevitable; the only difference was a quick death, or a slow one.

Yeah, see that’s where the euthanasia aspect catches my attention. Quick death brought on by something they caused themselves or a slow death caused by circumstances they could not control.

But again, I wasn’t in the tower; perhaps things were so bad in there that escaping may have prolonged their lives instead of shortening them. It was hotter than anything we’d ever experience and the floors they were on had become very unstable.

It’s funny how this is such a big ethical dilemma but when you’re actually in the situation, you can’t weight the right and the wrong properly. You’re just in panic mode. At a time when you need to make a big decision like this, you might be in too much of a frenzy to really think what to do.

 

[roveau]

You know how on September 11th, over 200 people “jumped” to their deaths? Was what they did sinful?

It’s said that these people didn’t choose to die, but rather chose how to die; it was either going to happen being suffocated in there or by impact. It could be argued that they were forced out, but would it have been a sinful act to jump rather than just wait for the inevitable, even though the latter may be even worse than the former?

Of course, some adjustment should be made because in a panic situation, you might not be in your right mind.

But, theologically, was it a sinful thing? And I’m guessing most of you will say no. I don’t have any opinion either way because I wasn’t in the tower and I don’t really know how bad it was. This could have implications on end-of-life treatment and euthanasia, so it’s not just a hypothetical discussion.

I don’t see how it would have any implication on euthanasia etc., because it was a situation of high drama and reactions to certain suffocation and burning alive would have been more or less automatic… that is, to jump.

The sin argument could be applied to if they stayed or jumped because either way they were more than likely to die. But they had no choice, people faced with fire, heat and smoke will automatically flee in the opposite direction. No sin would be involved and I think the Lord would have been waiting to comfort them in their distress on that day.

I think they would have had more of a chance to live if they jumped, several people have survived falling from great heights due to broken or soft landings, assistance by wind updraughts etc.

 

[mark_a]

You know how on September 11th, over 200 people “jumped” to their deaths? Was what they did sinful?

It’s said that these people didn’t choose to die, but rather chose how to die; it was either going to happen being suffocated in there or by impact. It could be argued that they were forced out, but would it have been a sinful act to jump rather than just wait for the inevitable, even though the latter may be even worse than the former?

Of course, some adjustment should be made because in a panic situation, you might not be in your right mind.

But, theologically, was it a sinful thing? And I’m guessing most of you will say no. I don’t have any opinion either way because I wasn’t in the tower and I don’t really know how bad it was. This could have implications on end-of-life treatment and euthanasia, so it’s not just a hypothetical discussion.

Hmmmm. Let’s see.

Burn or suffocate to death or have an instantanious pain free death?

I know the choice I’d make.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Hmmmm. Let’s see.

Burn or suffocate to death or have an instantanious pain free death?

I know the choice I’d make.

I agree with you there! Burning to death is one of my bigger fears.

I honestly think that these people didn’t go “hmmm…window, or burn?” I really don’t think there was any choice involved at all. Instinct and knee-jerk reaction was all of it. No choices made, no time to think. Just pure survial panicked instinct.

These people faced true horror, and I pray that God blesses them in the next life.

 

[jplewis002]

I would definitely agree that the jumpers were not in a state of mind where they could correctly judge the situation and act accordingly or safely.

In this situation, it appeared that their only option was to jump.

To add to the “improper state of mind” theory, I’m rather certain of this anyways, there was a man who tried to climb down the side of the building, take note he was over 80 stories high, and eventually he ended up falling.

Would any person in the right state of mind think it would be safe to even attempt to climb down a completely vertical face of a skyscraper and expect that the risks are not against them and understand the chances of falling are dramatically high? (Then again the other option was burn or suffocate–I suppose the view was ultimate death so they were willing to take any risks needed to possibly survive)

 

[VonDerTann]

I remember a statement from a fireman who was on the ground on 9/11, and who heard bodies hitting the ground. He said in horror to a colleague, “how bad must it be up there that jumping out of the world trade center is the best option you have?”

-And there, I posit, is the answer. May God have mercy on all impacted - directly or indirectly – by 9/11

-VdT

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Sorry, but the original poster had a valid question. Were there Catholics who jumped? Did they have time to consider all the consequences? Did they make peace with God before jumping? What were their thoughts before jumping? For some there may have been a moral delimma and right or wrong to some the question of sin may have entered their minds.

Some people were seen to make the Sign of the Cross before they jumped.

They only had a couple of seconds to decide. To die from smoke inhalation, or to die from being burned alive, or to jump and maybe be spared, but in any case their families would be able to have a body to be buried versus staying in the building and dying alone with no body to be buried.

Just as a rule of thumb, whenever someone criticizes someone else who is in one of those instant decision situations, ask them what they would do and then after two seconds, say: “Time’s up. You’re dead”. When they protest, say: “I’m sorry, but that’s all the time you had. So you would have died because you took too long.”

 

[Mijoy2]

This is a straw man.

They probably did not jump hoping to die, they jumped hoping for some miracle that they’d live.

 

[Victorious]

I don’t think it was a deliberate act of self-murder. In the first place, I doubt those people would have jumped if the attacks that produced the physically intolerable conditions had not taken place. In the second place – and I think this is the most important point – they were under extreme physical and mental duress. Duress lessens and even obviates culpability. Added to this is the likelihood, as somebody has already pointed out, that the environment on those upper floors physically disabled these poor people to the point where they could not think clearly.

There can be no doubt, I think, that the mere act of jumping out of a high-rise is objectively evil, all things being equal; but a sin also requires a guilty intent. I think in the case of those who jumped from the WTC, this was lacking. Such evil intent as existed on 9/11 belongs to the hijackers who perpetrated these monstrous attacks, and not to their victims.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

You know how on September 11th, over 200 people “jumped” to their deaths? Was what they did sinful?

It’s said that these people didn’t choose to die, but rather chose how to die; it was either going to happen being suffocated in there or by impact. It could be argued that they were forced out, but would it have been a sinful act to jump rather than just wait for the inevitable, even though the latter may be even worse than the former?

Of course, some adjustment should be made because in a panic situation, you might not be in your right mind.

But, theologically, was it a sinful thing? And I’m guessing most of you will say no. I don’t have any opinion either way because I wasn’t in the tower and I don’t really know how bad it was. This could have implications on end-of-life treatment and euthanasia, so it’s not just a hypothetical discussion.

I agree with the posters who say that jumping out of the burning towers falls under double effect. That is, it was not suicide. The object of their act was jumping out a window and fleeing unbearable heat. They certainly did not want to die, so their intention wasn’t suicidal. And the foreseen negative effect of their act - death - was not a means to the foreseen positive effect (escaping the heat); in other words, the collision with the ground is not a means of escaping the heat. Finally, the circumstances certainly justify permitting the foreseen effect of their death.

And I haven’t even touched their psychological condition at the time. Even without that, double effect exonerates them, but the instinct to get away from overpowering, burning heat is so powerful that even if it didn’t, we certainly cannot impute to them full consent for their jumping.

May they all rest in peace.