9:29

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mango
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Mango

Guest
9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book(Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (YusufAli Translation)
  1. I don’t believe in Allah
  2. I don’t believe in Last Day
  3. I do my work without any trouble to others, I go in my own way.
  4. I don’t accept Islam
So, According to this verse 9:29,

Are muslims obliged to fight against me because of my belief ?

Should i pay Jiyza tax to muslims to submit to them ?

Should i feel subdued because of my belief ?

Pls Explain.
 
Mango… welcome! 🙂 I should let our muslim fellows answer your questions.
 
It’s claimed that these verses are only guides for when you are at war. But I don’t know where that is explicitly stated in the text.
 
Surah 9, the Surah of the Sword, was revealed after Muhammad had won the battle of Hunain. For those who don’t know, that was the last battle Muhammad fought. He had earlier conquered Mecca. Hunain was fought on the 6th or 10th Shawwal or the 25th Ramadan 8AH. Mecca was conquered on the 20th Ramadan 8AH. In the Muslim calender Ramadan is the month before Shawwal.

We can date Surah 9 pretty accurately because the battle of Hunain is mentioned in 9:25 - thus the revelation must have been after Muhammad had conquered Mecca and made himself the master of Arabia. There would be no more battles in Arabia for centuries thus putting the lie to the Muslim claim that surah 9 was in the context of war. What war one would ask. Only the war between the Muslims and the kafirs outside Arabia, because Muhammad and his companions began casting their greedy eyes outside Arabia. They attacked the Byzantines and the Persians. These attacks were unprovoked. Neither the Byzantines nor the Persians knew about the Arabs before they attacked. The Persian surprise is detailed in sahih Bukhari.
 
Rodrigo Bivar:
Surah 9, the Surah of the Sword, was revealed after Muhammad had won the battle of Hunain. For those who don’t know, that was the last battle Muhammad fought. He had earlier conquered Mecca. Hunain was fought on the 6th or 10th Shawwal or the 25th Ramadan 8AH. Mecca was conquered on the 20th Ramadan 8AH. In the Muslim calender Ramadan is the month before Shawwal.

We can date Surah 9 pretty accurately because the battle of Hunain is mentioned in 9:25 - thus the revelation must have been after Muhammad had conquered Mecca and made himself the master of Arabia. There would be no more battles in Arabia for centuries thus putting the lie to the Muslim claim that surah 9 was in the context of war. What war one would ask. Only the war between the Muslims and the kafirs outside Arabia, because Muhammad and his companions began casting their greedy eyes outside Arabia. They attacked the Byzantines and the Persians. These attacks were unprovoked. Neither the Byzantines nor the Persians knew about the Arabs before they attacked. The Persian surprise is detailed in sahih Bukhari.
Click to expand...
So this verses intentionally addressing to non muslims. Do you know what his purpose revealed these kind of verses?
 
Muslims will obviously disagree but the facts are against them. I think that with Surah 9, Muhammad unilaterally cancelled all treaties made with non-Muslims, except those he found it convenient to keep, and thus, made a unilateral declaration of war against all pagans. Except the Jews and Christians whom he was willing to merely subjugate and humiliate. This declaration of war has not been repealed and is still operational today.

The fact that Muhammad felt it necessary to tell his followers to ‘kill the pagans wherever you find them’ even after he had conquered Mecca and made himself the master of Arabia tells alot about his megalomaniacal evil plans. However, Muslims will still claim that surah 9 was in the context of war even though there was no war. Or that surah 9 was in response to non-Muslim ‘treachery’ - even though there were few non-Muslims left in Arabia and those who were left were no longer any threat to the Muslims. No wars would be fought in the Arabian peninsula for centuries. But Muslims won’t tell you that. They will imply, through deliberate lies or ignorance, that there was a war going on when surah 9 was revealed. However, the facts speak for themselves. Ask any Muslims to tell you what war / battle occurred after Hunain. They would be unable to tell you any that occurred in the rest of Muhammad’s lifetime. He died within 2 years of surah 9.
 
Cyber_Night, Thanks for welcoming me. 🙂

Let’s read what the great Islamic scholars say about this verse 9:29. Great Quranic Commentator Ibn Kathir’s Quranic commentary for verse 9:29, pages 405 - 409, states: ( www.tafsir.com)

Page 404:

The Order to fight People of the Scriptures until they give the Jizyah.
Page 405

**This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the Pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah’s religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims’ control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination….

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr (Unbeliever) and Disgrace.

Allah said, until they pay the Jizyah, if they do not choose to embrace Islam, with willing submission, in defeat and subservience, and feel themselves subdued, disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated.**

Ibn Kathir, one of the greatest Muslim scholars ever, states that Christians and Jews that don’t embrace Islam are forced to submit in defeat, subservience, and feel themselves subdued, disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Muslims are not allowed to honor Christians and Jews, for they are miserable, disgraced, and humiliated.

A second reference for this verse comes from the “Reliance of the Traveler”, page 559 [11]. This book is not just a commentary; rather it is “A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law.” It is based upon the Shafi’i school of Islamic law. (There are four major schools of Islamic jurisprudence, the Shafi’i being the largest of them). The book represents not just the work of a single scholar, but rather “represents **a large collectivity of scholars….” **It is not just a simple Quranic commentary; rather it is a foundational theological textbook.

**The Caliph makes war upon the Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians, provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax Jizya…in accordance with the word of Allah Most High:

“Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden - who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book - until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled.” 9:29

The Caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim.**
 
40.png
exoflare:
It’s claimed that these verses are only guides for when you are at war. But I don’t know where that is explicitly stated in the text.
Click to expand...
Where it is claimed ? Could you pls show me evidence ?

If it is in War, Why it is not mentioned in 9:29 ?

Do you mean 9:29 is an order to muslims to make war on non-muslims ?

If it is in War, Should the non-muslims pay Jiyza to muslims and feel themselves subdued in War ?

Thank You.
 
Greetings DeExupery

Dear Muslims,

My Question still remains,

According to this verse 9:29,

Are muslims obliged to fight against me because of my belief ?

Should i pay Jiyza tax to muslims to submit to them ?

Should i feel subdued because of my belief ?

Pls answer me. Thx.
 
40.png
Mango:
Where it is claimed ? Could you pls show me evidence ?

If it is in War, Why it is not mentioned in 9:29 ?

Do you mean 9:29 is an order to muslims to make war on non-muslims ?

If it is in War, Should the non-muslims pay Jiyza to muslims and feel themselves subdued in War ?

Thank You.
Click to expand...
Like I said, I have no evidence to back this up but that’s what you always hear claimed by Muslims when the subject of these verses is brought up. I’ve never been given specific proof as to how those verses are limited to the context of war.

I’m not trying to argue this one way or the other. Just naming the standard response given.
 
This may be a naïve question and a bit off topic, forgive me Mango, but why would Allah want non-Muslim to pay a tax? This sounds more like extortion than a tax and more like tribute paid to the majority by the minority than the will of God. I believe historically some Christian nations charged Jews and Muslims a tax, but did God ever direct it or was it directed by man’s greed?

Peace,

George
 
GW… if you ever lived in Muslims nation. or understand about dhimitude. Then you now what this surah means.

Pls provide proof that historically CHristian charged the Joos and Muslims a tax. As far as I know, tax is addressed to all. Not depend on specific religion or faith. :o
 
GW,

One more problem…I believe this is MENTIONED in Quran, thus moslems believe that it comes directly from Allah. That’s why Mango started this thread, I believe.

Fox
 
George Waters:
This may be a naïve question and a bit off topic, forgive me Mango, but why would Allah want non-Muslim to pay a tax? This sounds more like extortion than a tax and more like tribute paid to the majority by the minority than the will of God. I believe historically some Christian nations charged Jews and Muslims a tax, but did God ever direct it or was it directed by man’s greed?

Peace,

George
Click to expand...
Dear George,
You asked a Question “would Allah want non-Muslim to pay a tax?”. You have the answer in the same Question.

To Feel ourself subdued, feel in the state of subjection, to accept the superiority of muslims so that we can be coerced to convert to Islam. Muslims believe this is the word of Allah. So, i believe this is the order from Allah.

Yes, It is something similar to extortion to force you to convert to Islam. I will quote what Islamic Scholars say about this Jiyza later. For Now, You can read what the great Quranic Commentator Ibn Kathir Tells about Jiyza in his Tafsir.

"Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr (Unbeliever) and Disgrace.

Allah said, until they pay the Jizyah, if they do not choose to embrace Islam, with willing submission, in defeat and subservience, and feel themselves subdued, disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated."

Peace.
 
No response from our muslims friends ? 🙂

I believe Faith101, Fatuma and other muslim friends can help me to understand this verse.

Thanks.
 
Cyber Knight:
GW… if you ever lived in Muslims nation. or understand about dhimitude. Then you now what this surah means.

Pls provide proof that historically CHristian charged the Joos and Muslims a tax. As far as I know, tax is addressed to all. Not depend on specific religion or faith. :o
Click to expand...
Cyber Knight,

You are correct; I have not experienced discrimination like this. The point of my question was not so much what does that surah mean, but how can it be justified by Muslims in any way except to admit it is to dominate minorities.

I can not remember where I read about the special tax imposed on Jews and Muslims. I am sure it is in one of my books at home. I will endeavor to find it, but it may take some time. I can provide you with a link fordham.edu/halsall/source/jews-sietepart.html that does address the treatment of Jews by Christians in thirteenth century Spain as an example. I am grateful Catholicism has moved past this disgraceful practice.

Peace,

George
 
George Waters:
Cyber Knight,

You are correct; I have not experienced discrimination like this. The point of my question was not so much what does that surah mean, but how can it be justified by Muslims in any way except to admit it is to dominate minorities.

I can not remember where I read about the special tax imposed on Jews and Muslims. I am sure it is in one of my books at home. I will endeavor to find it, but it may take some time. I can provide you with a link fordham.edu/halsall/source/jews-sietepart.html that does address the treatment of Jews by Christians in thirteenth century Spain as an example. I am grateful Catholicism has moved past this disgraceful practice.

Peace,

George
Click to expand...
GW, thanks for the link. Yup its hard to understand why Christian applied such law to the Joos and (muslim?). Its all over because :
  1. Its not human
  2. Its not biblical.
So your claim that we also did the same thing towards them is failed as we realise it is WRONG! If it is biblical as God’s command then Christian in all over ther world will apply the dhimmitude and tax jiyza to the minority faith.
George Waters:
I am grateful Catholicism has moved past this disgraceful practice.
Click to expand...
We all indeed grateful Cath has passed for this stupid practice.
 
George Waters:
I believe historically some Christian nations charged Jews and Muslims a tax, Peace,

George
Click to expand...
Geroge, I believe this is red herring attempt.

Letz stick to the topic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top