9:29

[Mango]

This verse 9:29 frightens me very much.

Still waiting for our muslim friends to help me to understand.

 

[George_Waters]

Mango:

Geroge, I believe this is red herring attempt.

Letz stick to the topic.

Mango,

I am afraid my friend you believe wrong. My statement was not an attempt to distract from the topic, but to simply acknowledge we used to do the same, but have, by the grace of God, moved past such deplorable practices. It was not even a major part of my post; I apologize if I distracted you. As I stated in my previous post *“This sounds more like extortion than a tax and more like tribute paid to the majority by the minority than the will of God.” * I too, am interested in what our Muslim friends have to say about this verse, though I doubt it will be much more than a justification to support discrimination.

Peace,

George

 

[gurrato_alaien]

9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book(Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (YusufAli Translation)

1. I don’t believe in Allah
2. I don’t believe in Last Day
3. I do my work without any trouble to others, I go in my own way.
4. I don’t accept Islam

So, According to this verse 9:29,

Are muslims obliged to fight against me because of my belief ?

Should i pay Jiyza tax to muslims to submit to them ?

Should i feel subdued because of my belief ?

Pls Explain.

Peace
we are commanded to FINGHT IN THE WAY OF ALLAH AGAINST THOSE WHO FIGHT AGAINST US… means if anyone come to fight and trying to Kill or to take us away from our faith. in this case only we have to defend our WAY OF LIFE (DEEN or RELIGION) in the Cause of God. in order to make his words the most HIGH.

I hope the following verse from the Holy Qur’an will clear this matter:

2:190- Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.

Got it ?

Allah never allowed us to Kill Christians without rights… but He asked us to invite them to the way of their Lord with wisdome.

16:125 - Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from his path, and who receive guidance.

well, the verses which you found them scary are also Mentioned in the BIBLE… so that means the law of God is clear to everybody and not only to NON MUSLIMS.

THE BIBLE ALSO SAID THAT NON CHRISTIAN ARE CONSIDERED AS THE ENEMY OF GOD or the ANTI CHRIST, AND THE (CHRISTIANS) MUST PUT US INTO DEATH. is this not scary too ?
so it is not only the Qur’an which says about this Mr Warrior

have a look pls all of you.

Leviticus 24

15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin. 16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death. 17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. 18 And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast. 19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. 21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death. 22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

Dwuteronomy 13

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Deu 21

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. 22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: 23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
to be cont…

 

[gurrato_alaien]

Cont…

I DONT WANT TO POST MORE…

but see the solution which given by God in the Holy Qur’an in the first few Verses of Chapter 2. please read them carfully.

1 - A. L. M.

2 - This is the book; In it is guidance sure, without doubt To those Who Fear God;

3 - Who believe in the Unseen, Are steadfast in prayer And spend out of What We Have provided for them;

4 - And who believe in the Revelation Sent to thee, And sent before thy time, And (in their hearts) Have the assurance of the Hereafter.

5 - They are on (true) guidance, From their Lord, and it is These who will prosper.

whoever done these few simple steps. then they are not the enemy of Allah (God ALmight)

hope this help Inshaa Allah
Peace

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

gurrato,
Care to tell us what context 2:190 was revealed and when it was revealed? You Muslims love to claim we kafirs quote the Quran ‘out of context’. Now, what is the context of 2:190?

The rest of your post is merely the logical fallacy of tu quoque. Besides, the Christians follow the teachings of Christ, not the OT.

 

[gurrato_alaien]

Muslims are prohibited from starting any fights with the non-Muslims who are true peace seekers. But Muslims however, are commanded to show “firmness” to their enemy and to thrive on raising the wrath of those enemies who love to fight. In other words, treat the bullies and trouble makers with an attitude and style worse than theirs!

read the folowing verses : its explain how Muslim should deal with others:

60:8. Allâh does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allâh loves those who deal with equity.
60:9. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allâh forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers those who disobey Allâh).

(16:125): “Invite mankind to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious.”

29:46. And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islâmic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong, and say (to them): “We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilâh (God) and your Ilâh (God) is One (i.e. Allâh), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims).”

Tafsir bin katheer:
The Permissibility of being Kind to Disbelievers who do not fight against the Religion And Allah’s statement;
(Allah does not forbid you with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes,) means, those who did not have a role in your expulsion. Therefore, Allah does not forbid you from being kind to the disbelievers who do not fight you because of the religion, such as women and weak disbelievers,
(to deal kindly) to be gentle with them,
(and justly with those) to be fair with them
(Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.) Imam Ahmad recorded that Asma’ bint Abu Bakr said, "My mother, who was an idolatress at the time, came to me during the Treaty of Peace, the Prophet conducted with the Quraysh. I came to the Prophet and said, O Allah's Messenger! My mother came visiting, desiring something from me, should I treat her with good relations' The Prophet said, (Yes. Keep good relation with your mother.)'' The Two Sahihs recorded this Hadith. Imam Ahmad recorded that Abdullah bin Zubayr said, "Qutaylah came visiting her daughter, Asma’ bint Abi Bakr, with some gifts, such as Dibab, cheese and clarified (cooking) butter, and she was an idolatress at that time. Asma’ refused to accept her mother’s gifts and did not let her enter her house. A'ishah asked the Prophet about his verdict and Allah sent down the Ayah, (Allah does not forbid you with those who fought not against you on account of religion) until the end of the Ayah. Allah's Messenger ordered Asma' to accept her mother's gifts and to let her enter her house.'' Allah's statement, (Allah loves those who deal with equity.) was duly explained in the Tafsir of Surat Al-Hujurat. We also mentioned the authentic Hadith, (The just, who are fair in their decisions, families and those under their authority, will be on podiums made of light, to the right of the Throne.) The Prohibition of being Kind towards Combatant Disbelievers Allah's statement, (It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out that Allah forbids you to befriend them.) (60:9) means, Allah forbids you from being kind and befriending with the disbelievers who are openly hostile to you, those who fought against you, expelled you and helped to expel you. Allah the Exalted forbids you from being their friends and orders you to be their enemy.’ Then Allah stresses His threat against being friends with them, by saying,
(And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the wrongdoers.) As He said

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

gurrato,
Thanks for NOT answering my questions about 2:190. What do you have to hide?

Ciubate,
El Cid

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Rodrigo,

I notice that Brother Guratto doesn’t answer your question. Would you mind to answer, Brother Guratto?

Fox

 

[gurrato_alaien]

Rodrigo Bivar:

gurrato,
Thanks for NOT answering my questions about 2:190. What do you have to hide?

Ciubate,
El Cid

It was revealed in Al-Madinah

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

gurrato alaien:

It was revealed in Al-Madinah

Muhammad spent 10 years in Medina. What was the context of 2:190? I think it was an early Medina surah - so not quite as aggressive later surahs such as surah 9.

 

[gurrato_alaien]

Abu Al-Aliyah said, "This was the first Ayah about fighting that was revealed in Al-Madinah. Ever since it was revealed, Allah's Messenger used to fight only those who fought him and avoid non-combatants. Later, Surat Bara'ah (chapter 9 in the Qur'an) was revealed.'' Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said similarly, then he said that this was later abrogated by the Ayah:

(then kill them wherever you find them) (9:5).

However, this statement is not plausible, because Allah’s statement:

الَّذِينَ يُقَـتِلُونَكُمْ]

(…those who fight you) applies only to fighting the enemies who are engaged in fighting Islam and its people. So the Ayah means, `Fight those who fight you’, just as Allah said (in another Ayah):

وَقَاتِلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ كَآفَّةً كَمَا يُقَـتِلُونَكُمْ كَآفَّةً]

(…and fight against the Mushrikin collectively as they fight against you collectively.) (9:36)

This is why Allah said later in the Ayah:

وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ ثَقِفْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَخْرِجُوهُمْ مِّنْ حَيْثُ أَخْرَجُوكُمْ]

(And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out.) meaning, `Your energy should be spent on fighting them, just as their energy is spent on fighting you, and on expelling them from the areas from which they have expelled you, as a law of equality in punishment.’

(but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.)

This Ayah means, Fight for the sake of Allah and do not be transgressors,' such as, by committing prohibitions. Al-Hasan Al-Basri stated that transgression (indicated by the Ayah), "includes mutilating the dead, theft (from the captured goods), killing women, children and old people who do not participate in warfare, killing priests and residents of houses of worship, burning down trees and killing animals without real benefit.'' This is also the opinion of Ibn Abbas, Umar bin Abdul-`Aziz, Muqatil bin Hayyan and others. Muslim recorded in his Sahih that Buraydah narrated that Allah’s Messenger said:

«اغْزُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللهِ، قَاتِلُوا مَنْ كَفَرَ بِاللهِ، اغْزُوا وَلَا تَغُلُّوا وَلَا تَغْدِرُوا وَلَا تَمْثُلُوا وَلَا تَقْتُلُوا وَلِيدًا وَلَا أَصْحَابَ الصَّوَامِع»

(Fight for the sake of Allah and fight those who disbelieve in Allah. Fight, but do not steal (from the captured goods), commit treachery, mutilate (the dead), or kill a child, or those who reside in houses of worship.)

It is reported in the Two Sahihs that Ibn `Umar said, "A woman was found dead during one of the Prophet’s battles and the Prophet then forbade killing women and children. ‘’ There are many other Hadiths on this subject.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Thanks gurrato, you got that from Ibn Kathir.

There is some debate among Muslims whether 9:5 and 9:29 abrogate 2:190/191. However, it is clear that they do.

Surah 9:29 says fight all disbelievers until there is no religion except Islam or that the People of the Book pay jizya.

There is no mention of only fighting when Muslims are fought against. Remember surah 9 is later than surah 2, so I would say, surah 9 is likely to abrogate surah 2. Otherwise, one would be accusing Muhammad of disobeying Allah.

 

[Mango]

gurrato alaien,
You didn’t answer my Questions. Instead you write a big essay. We are talking about 9:29 which clearly says start offensive war against non-muslims.
gurrato alaien:

well, the verses which you found them scary are also Mentioned in the BIBLE… so that means the law of God is clear to everybody and not only to NON MUSLIMS.

This is called tu quoque or “you too” fallacy. You commit this fallacy when instead of defending your own argument, you start finding faults in others. It is a fallacy because even if what you say is true, you have failed to defend your case. This is typical Islamic reasoning.

I am not a Christian Btw.

No red herring too.

I am still looking for logical answer from you for 9:29.

 

[Mango]

gurrato alaien:

Tafsir bin katheer:

So, You believe in Ibn Kathir’s Tafsir.

Could you pls read the Ibn Kathir’s explanation of 9:29 in this same page ?

You can see Ibn Kathir’s explanation of 9:29 here,

The Order to fight People of the Scriptures until They give the Jizyah
tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20980

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace
tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20986

 

[Mango]

George Waters:

Mango,

I am afraid my friend you believe wrong. My statement was not an attempt to distract from the topic, but to simply acknowledge we used to do the same, but have, by the grace of God, moved past such deplorable practices. It was not even a major part of my post; I apologize if I distracted you. As I stated in my previous post *“This sounds more like extortion than a tax and more like tribute paid to the majority by the minority than the will of God.” * I too, am interested in what our Muslim friends have to say about this verse, though I doubt it will be much more than a justification to support discrimination.

Peace,

George

Agreed George. I just wished to stick with the topic.

Peace.

 

[r.gonzales]

Rodrigo Bivar:

Surah 9, the Surah of the Sword, was revealed after Muhammad had won the battle of Hunain. For those who don’t know, that was the last battle Muhammad fought. He had earlier conquered Mecca. Hunain was fought on the 6th or 10th Shawwal or the 25th Ramadan 8AH. Mecca was conquered on the 20th Ramadan 8AH. In the Muslim calender Ramadan is the month before Shawwal.

the falsehoods of your claims here have already been exposed by sister maria_james: here.

as for the issue of the jizyah, there have been posts about it here and here

 

[Mango]

r.gonzales ,
There was no explanation for the verse 9:29 and answers for my questions in the links you have given.

Care to answer my questions and 9:29 ?

Thanks.

 

[r.gonzales]

9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book(Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (YusufAli Translation)

this translation is erroneous and does not convey the intent of the verse. the verse actually says, “fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah and His messenger forbade, nor proclaim the religion of truth from the people of the Book until they give you the tax from a hand while they are submissive.” thus, a more accurate rendition is the one found in the m. khan translation (without the parenthesized additions).

in a reply by jalal abualrub (taken from islamlife.com - but no longer available on the site) to jochen katz from answering-islam.org, he stated:

The topic of discussion in Verses 29-35 and 123 is the treatment of hostile Christians and Jews. Verse 9:123, which Katz quoted, is about the necessity of securing the outmost boarder-posts of the Islamic State against hostile non-Muslim states. Verses 29-35 describe the tireless efforts of hostile Christians and Jews to extinguish the light of Islam. This is what I wrote in explanation of Verses 9:123 and 9:29, “Hence, the two verses are about hostile Jews and Christians who live in countries surrounding the Islamic State and show enmity and aggression against Muslims and Islam”; [Holy Wars… Crusades…Jihad, by Jalal Abualrub, published in 2002 by Madinah Publishers and Distributors, Pg., 164-167.]

this context given by brother jalal is what is indicated by islamic history, the asbaab an-nuzool (reasons of revelation) and the books of tafseer. it should be noted here that the portion of tafseer ibn katheer you provided is taken from the english rendition of the abridgedment done by safi ar-rahman al-mubarakpuri for darussalam publishing and are clipped. added to the fact that your quotes are clipped is the fact that the source itself it is not the complete tafseer by ibn katheer and excludes many parts from it - the original tafseer ibn katheer being 4 volumes in arabic, and the abridgement being 1 volume in arabic. the subheadings used were added by al-mubarakpuri and are not included in the original.

ibn katheer states that this was the first verse revealed with the order of fighting the people of the Book. that this occurred during the ninth year after the miration to madeenah. the continuation of the rest of the first portion you quoted states: “the messenger sent his intent to various arab areas around al-madeenah to gather forces, and he collected an army of thirty thousand. some people from al-madeenah and some hypocrites, in and around it, lagged behind, for that year was a year of drought and intense heat. the messenger of Allah (s) marched, heading towards ash-sham to fight the romans until he reached tabuk, where he set up camp for about twenty days next to its water resources. he then prayed to Allah for a decision and went back to al-madeenah because it was a hard year and the people were weak, as we will mention, Allah willing.” (abridged tafseer ibn katheer tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20980). which btw, again refutes what bivar said about hunain being the last battle. the conquest of makkah took place during the 8th year after the migration, and the battle of hunain took place shortly after it. tabook took place the following year during the 9th year after the migration.

the second clipped portion you quoted can be found here: tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20986.

con’t…

 

[r.gonzales]

as for your questions:

Mango:

Are muslims obliged to fight against me because of my belief ?

firstly, jihaad (striving/struggling) for Allah’s sake is of different types and levels. in his commentary of muhammad bin abdil-wahhaab’s book “kashf ash-shubuhaat”, commenting on the ibn abdil-wahhaab’s statement, “so Allah’s army, they are dominant with the proof and the tongue, just as they are dominant with the sword and the spear,” ibn 'uthaimeen states:

the writer, may Allah have mercy on him, indicated that Allah’s army are His believing slaves who aid Allah and His messenger, striving against the people in two matters. the first, the proof and the clarification; and this is with respect to the hypocrites who do not make their enmity of the muslims apparent. so these ones, they are strived against with the proof and the clarification. the second is the one who strives with the sword and the spear; and they are those who are apparent in enmity. they are the pure unbelievers who are known for their disbelief. and regarding this and that which is before it Allah says, “o prophet, strive against the unbelievers and the hypocites and be harsh upon them. their abode will be hell, and the outcome is wretched.” (66:9).
striving with the proof and the clarification is for the unbelievers first, then they are striven against with the sword and the spear second. and they are not striven against with the sword and the spear except after establishment of the proof against them. and the obligation upon the islamic nation is to fight every weapon directed towards islam with what befits it. so whoever wages war against islam by way of ideologies and statements, it is obligatory to clarif the falsehood of what they are upon with logical theoretical evidences linked to the legislative evidences. and those who wage war against islam from the direction of the economy, it is obligatory that it be defended against, rather, it is to be attacked if possible, by the likes of what they wage war against islam with. and those who wage war against islam with weapons, it is obligatory that they be opposed by what befits those weapons.

secondly, the muslim nations are not in a position to fight anyone physically. and proof of this is the fact that when kuwait was invaded by iraq, the other muslim countries could not come to the aid of kuwait without the aid of other non-muslim nations. so even if this verse carried the implications that you and others suggest, this is not the time for fighting others, it’s the time where efforts should be made in calling the people to islam and spreading it through those means.

thirdly, the context of this verse, as proven by the circumstances surrounding its revelation is one of hostility and aggression from the christians and jews surrounding the muslims. this command was not sent down during a time of peace and calm. it was revealed during a time when the jews and christians, as well as the hypcocrites among the muslims were showing hostility towards the muslims.

so, given the context of this verse, as well as the circumstances of the current situation, what a muslim is obliged to do is call you to islam, and clarify any misconceptions you may have with regards to it by means of discussion and explanations using evidences from the Quran and the Sunnah.

Mango:

Should i pay Jiyza tax to muslims to submit to them ?

as mentioned in the posts i linked to, the jizyah tax is paid by non-muslim citizens of a muslim state living under its protection. they are not those who are just there on work visas or student visas, they’re actual citizens of that muslim state. if you don’t live in a muslim country, why would you have to pay the jizyah tax?

 

[Mango]

r.gonzales:

this translation is erroneous and does not convey the intent of the verse. the verse actually says, “fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah and His messenger forbade, nor proclaim the religion of truth from the people of the Book until they give you the tax from a hand while they are submissive.” thus, a more accurate rendition is the one found in the m. khan translation (without the parenthesized additions).

It Seems your M.Khan’s translation is wrong. I don’t know where do you get M.Khan Translation.

This is What M.Khan’s translation Says,

***9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. ** *

ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe009.htm
searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=9&mac=

M.Khan says in introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv,
"**Allah revealed in Sura Bara’at the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued ** (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon “the fighting” against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first “the fighting” was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory "

According to M.Khan, Allah orders to start offensive war against Jews and Christians and other non-muslims when muslims are strong.