99 Names of Allah sung in a Catholic Cathedral

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The point is that a false god is being venerated in a Catholic Cathedral. Whats next? Enthrone a statue of Buddha in the church?

Been there, done that - at Assisi in 1986, IIRC.​

Go to: traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A169rcBuddhaAssisi.htm

ABOUT US

Tradition In Action is committed to defend the perennial Magisterium of Holy Mother Church and Catholic traditions. TIA also works for a restoration of Christian civilization, adapted to contemporary historical circumstances.

From: traditioninaction.org

 

[Dauphin]

This kind of thing isn’t outright blasphemous, but it’s an extremely misguided and confusing action.

We have the brilliant revelation of the Most Holy Trinity. We worship the one God that is in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. What possible reason could there be to substitute an imperfect understanding of God for this perfect truth?

This kind of thing breeds indifferentism. It lends recognition to the great heresy of Islam that it simply doesn’t deserve. It jeopardises souls by giving an endorsement to a faith which is utterly false.

In the end, there’s no tangible benefit to this event - just “good feelings” and a “coming together of communities”. Whatever minor benefits this might have, it just isn’t worth it.

 

[Dauphin]

Been there, done that - at Assisi in 1986, IIRC.​

Go to: traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A169rcBuddhaAssisi.htm

ABOUT US

Tradition In Action is committed to defend the perennial Magisterium of Holy Mother Church and Catholic traditions. TIA also works for a restoration of Christian civilization, adapted to contemporary historical circumstances.

From: traditioninaction.org

What a ridiculous website. Don’t bring that junk here. I love the article about Pope Benedict “endorsing the buddhist agenda” by joining his hands together when he greets people.

(buddha on the Tabernacle is a disgrace, though)

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Evidently the priest and/or bishop disagrees with you, not everyone sees Allah Most Holy as a “false god”. The Arabic Christians call Him Allah…so again we have a disagreement it appears.

Words - the same. Content of the words - not the same. Result - the analogy falls down.​

If he were called Our Lord Jesus Christ, but were a rain god or a god with three heads or a divine elephant, he would still be a false god; would still be an idol. It would still
be the sin of idolatry to recognise him as God.

Jesus Christ is Who He is because of His deeds & words, because He is The Crucified & Risen Lord - His Name is a sign of Who He Is. A Welsh baby was baptised Jesu Grist in 1893 - the Name common to both no more shows he was the Lord than the Names “Jésus” or “Christos” show that Hispanic or Greek men or boys are Jesus Christ the Crucified, Resurrected, Glorious Lord. Jesus Justus, who is mentioned in the Book of Acts, was a Christian; but he was not the Christians’ Saviour Jesus, the Christ.

Islam rejects the Cross - Christian faith is inseparable from recognising that Christ Crucified is the Resurrected & Glorified Son & Lord & Saviour; it arises from & needs & delights in & make its boast in the Cross. That alone would make the two incompatible.

Besides, Westminster Cathedral is not in Arab territory; it’s in London in England, in the UK, in Europe. There are plenty of Londons - but only one in England. So it would be useless for a tourist to wander through the London in Ontario in Canada in the North of America, looking for Westminster Cathedral. That* is* in London; not the London in Ontario, but the London in the UK.

 

[the_phoenix]

Makes me want to go into an Islamic mosque and sing the praises of Jesus Christ, followed by a recitation of the Litany of Mary.

Here are some of Mary’s names. One should think out of fairness that the Moslems would allow me to say or sing these in their holy place:

"Full of grace,
Fountain of beauty,
Model of virtue,
First fruit of the redemption,
Perfect disciple of Christ,
Untarnished image of the Church,
Woman transformed,
Woman clothed with the sun,
Woman crowned with stars,
Gentle Lady,
(pause)

Gracious Lady,
Our Lady,
Joy of Israel,
Splendor of the Church,
Pride of the human race,
Advocate of grace,
Minister of holiness,
Champion of God’s people,
(pause)

Queen of love,
Queen of mercy,
Queen of peace,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs and prophets,
Queen of apostles and martyrs,
Queen of confessors and virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of all the earth,
Queen of heaven,"

campus.udayton.edu/mary/prayers/litpray01.html

~~ the phoenix

 

[Dauphin]

Words - the same. Content of the words - not the same. Result - the analogy falls down.​

If he were called Our Lord Jesus Christ, but were a rain god or a god with three heads or a divine elephant, he would still be a false god; would still be an idol. It would still
be the sin of idolatry to recognise him as God.

I think this is a bit unfair. Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham. As such, it’s difficult to call them idolaters. They’re certainly heretics.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

What a ridiculous website. Don’t bring that junk here. I love the article about Pope Benedict “endorsing the buddhist agenda” by joining his hands together when he greets people.

(buddha on the Tabernacle is a disgrace, though)

I linked to it for three reasons:​

1. Whatever can be said against it, it is critical from a Catholic, not a schismatic, POV - which was important because I wanted a Catholic website; had it not been Catholic, it would be easier to discounted; which is why the Traditio site, or those of various Protestants, would not do. It had to be a Catholic one.
2. The pictures more or less speak for themselves
3. The silliness you mention was not relevant to the point I was making. That it is a silly, & laughable, does not lessen the evil of the Assisi abomination, or the sacrilege, idolatry, scandal, & blasphemy of setting an idol on the altar of Christ. People see & suspect evil where none exists, because they have seen so much evil done by those who should propagate, not pervert, the Catholic faith - no wonder then, if they are over-sensitive. They cry “Wolf !” where none are, because there have been, & are still, many wolves where none were imagined to be - nor should be.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I think this is a bit unfair. Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham. As such, it’s difficult to call them idolaters. They’re certainly heretics.

It’s not Muslims who are the idolaters - but the Christians who honour allah in a Catholic Cathedral. Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor is the idolator, because he is supposed to proclaim faith in Christ - instead of which he has joined the worship of an anti-Christian deity with the adoration that he owes to Christ. And that is idolatrous - it is opposed to the Commandments (quite apart from the indifferentism which all this is apt to encourage )​

Lovely photo, BTW

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Not just the priests and bishops – the Catechism itself disagrees with the proposition that Muslims worship some other deity:

841: The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

That was before Catholic clergy decided to turn their churches into bad imitations of mosques. IOW - it’s been overtaken by events. Paul VI did not have Muslims threatening to kill him - unlike Benedict XVI. When the barbarians are at the gates, soft & praising speeches are out of place - something more robust is needed.​

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

wow…that makes me want to watch an old Superman show!!!

I wondered when it would raise a laugh.

 

[Mirdath]

That was before Catholic clergy decided to turn their churches into bad imitations of mosques. IOW - it’s been overtaken by events. Paul VI did not have Muslims threatening to kill him - unlike Benedict XVI. When the barbarians are at the gates, soft & praising speeches are out of place - something more robust is needed.​

I was under the impression that Church teaching was like the fabled law of the Medes and the Persians, and that particular teaching leaves no room to wiggle. Muslims worship your God. Are you suggesting the Pope make a 180 on a matter of faith and morals?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I was under the impression that Church teaching was like the fabled law of the Medes and the Persians, and that particular teaching leaves no room to wiggle. Muslims worship your God. Are you suggesting the Pope make a 180 on a matter of faith and morals?

Well, the contention has been made many times already, and which hasn’t been disproved, that:

the Islamic Allah is not the god as taught by Christ.

Their characteristics are so different. The only overlap nonsumd managed to come up with were these:

Jesus was born of Virgin Mary
God is as close to us as our jugular vein.

In every other respect Islamic theology bears no resemblance to Christianity and Islamic Allah bears no resemblance to the God as taught by Jesus Christ.

Now - it seems to me that you have two choices - either to believe the word of a man who killed, tortured, raped, stole, and enslaved innocent little children that his Allah is your God

or

you can see the evidence presented to you and make up your mind.

I’m sure you would agree that someone who enslaved innocent little children is hardly of credible.

please ignore that last sentence: It might not be obvious to some well-meaning and misguided Christians.

 

[Mirdath]

Well, the contention has been made many times already, and which hasn’t been disproved, that:

the Islamic Allah is not the god as taught by Christ.

So you are not Catholic, I take it? I quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which if anything is should be an authority on the subject. He is your God. The God of Jesus’ teachings appears quite different in nature and characteristic from the God of Jeremiah’s or Jonah’s; were they then speaking of different deities?

I dislike Paul, but he made a very good point: for now we see God as only through a glass darkly. Some people have a slightly darker glass than others, and might well ascribe different characteristics to God. If a man bicycles at a crazy speed between the two of us while we’re talking on the sidewalk, and you say his shirt was blue while I say it was green, is there any denying we nearly got killed by the same lunatic on a bicycle?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

What would the Christian martyrs who died defending Christendom have thought of the singing of the names of the Islamic god in Westminster Abbey?

Times have sure changed.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

So you are not Catholic, I take it? I quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which if anything is should be an authority on the subject. He is your God. The God of Jesus’ teachings appears quite different in nature and characteristic from the God of Jeremiah’s or Jonah’s; were they then speaking of different deities?

I dislike Paul, but he made a very good point: for now we see God as only through a glass darkly. Some people have a slightly darker glass than others, and might well ascribe different characteristics to God. If a man bicycles at a crazy speed between the two of us while we’re talking on the sidewalk, and you say his shirt was blue while I say it was green, is there any denying we nearly got killed by the same lunatic on a bicycle?

I have no problems saying that the catechism is wrong on this issue.

I’m sure there are valid reasons why Christians all and sundry, even last one of those blessed souls, think that the God of Jeremiah or Jonah is the God as taught by Jesus Christ.

That is not the issue under contention.

That issue - you still have not addressed - stubbornly clinging to your misguided belief that the islamic Allah is the God as taught by Jesus Christ - despite the evidence shown to you.

I wonder if the God of Jeremiah told the Jews to persecute Christians like the Islamic Allah told the Muslims. No? Why not?

It all boils down to the fact that you just want to believe that a man who killed, raped, stole, raided caravans, plundered villages, enslaved little children would have the slightest credibility to speak on behalf of God.

What is it about Muhammad that makes you take his word, yes - it’s only his word, that his Allah is your God?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

If a man bicycles at a crazy speed between the two of us while we’re talking on the sidewalk, and you say his shirt was blue while I say it was green, is there any denying we nearly got killed by the same lunatic on a bicycle?

If there are two cyclists - both wearing blue shirts - one of whom is a man and the other is a woman.

Now - would you say they are the same person just because they both wore blue shirts?

 

[Caesar]

So you are not Catholic, I take it? I quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which if anything is should be an authority on the subject. He is your God. The God of Jesus’ teachings appears quite different in nature and characteristic from the God of Jeremiah’s or Jonah’s; were they then speaking of different deities?

I dislike Paul, but he made a very good point: for now we see God as only through a glass darkly. Some people have a slightly darker glass than others, and might well ascribe different characteristics to God. If a man bicycles at a crazy speed between the two of us while we’re talking on the sidewalk, and you say his shirt was blue while I say it was green, is there any denying we nearly got killed by the same lunatic on a bicycle?

Quick clarification- the 1984 Catechism is not a binding document or infallible statement- it is a teaching tool. One must go further then the Catechism to get at the heart of what it is saying (or should be saying, in some cases).

There is no clear teaching in the Church as to the nature of the Muslim Allah. This is not a point of doctrine, it is one of speculation. There have been some theologians who have seen the Muslim god as being the same as the God of the Jews and the Christians, although the Muslims have a distorted and perverse concept of God. There have been more who have seen Allah as a creation of the warlord Mohammed or, worse, a demon. In any event, the Allah of the Muslims is far differant then the God of the Christians- the Muslim god cannot relate to humanity, he is all might and glory and humanity exists on a whim. Allah would never degrade himself by becoming a man, much less a poor man who has to eat, and walk, and suffer human pains- certainly not die at the hands of other humans! No, the Muslim god is vastly differant then the Lord God of Christianity.

 

[Mirdath]

I’m sure there are valid reasons why Christians all and sundry, even last one of those blessed souls, think that the God of Jeremiah or Jonah is the God as taught by Jesus Christ.

That is not the issue under contention.

It is the twin sibling of the issue under contention.

That issue - you still have not addressed - stubbornly clinging to your misguided belief that the islamic Allah is the God as taught by Jesus Christ - despite the evidence shown to you.

What evidence?

The Catholic Catechism says Allah is the God of Abraham. John Paul II kissed the Quran and quoted that section of the Catechism as something right and worthy. Benedict has prayed with Muslims.

Your own hierarchy has forsaken the xenophobia you still cling to. Why is it so hard for you to admit that other faiths might worship the same God you do, approaching the throne of the Lord with a sincere desire to love and serve him?

Do you believe Protestants worship the same deity you do? If so, what’s your problem with Muslims?

I wonder if the God of Jeremiah told the Jews to persecute Christians like the Islamic Allah told the Muslims. No? Why not?

Jeremiah was around well before the Christ, that’d be why. One should note that the Old Testament God did tell the Jews to persecute and slaughter anybody who was in the way, but that’s another discussion.

It all boils down to the fact that you just want to believe that a man who killed, raped, stole, raided caravans, plundered villages, enslaved little children would have the slightest credibility to speak on behalf of God.

And you take the word of zealots, of bandits, of men who cheat their own brothers, of kings and paupers and prophets and con-men who until a ‘conversion experience’ were happily persecuting you. Don’t talk to me about ‘credibility’.

If there are two cyclists - both wearing blue shirts - one of whom is a man and the other is a woman.

Now - would you say they are the same person just because they both wore blue shirts?

That is not the question I asked and has nothing to do with what I presented. You yourself said that the Muslim God is not the Christian God because, and I quote, ‘Their characteristics are so different’. It is a question of differing characteristics viewed on one person, not one of similar characteristics on different persons. Don’t try to dodge.

Caesar:

Quick clarification- the 1984 Catechism is not a binding document or infallible statement- it is a teaching tool. One must go further then the Catechism to get at the heart of what it is saying (or should be saying, in some cases).

Is it not safe to assume that one had better have a very good reason to outright contradict the Catechism without falling into error? What reason have those people who deny that Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike worship the God of Abraham to go against this teaching document intended to instruct the faithful?

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Found on the weblog of Father Tim Finigan (whom may God preserve ) - the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/search?q=Allah​

• Westminster Cathedral blog on 99 names
• Mgr Mark Langham has posted on the The Beautiful Names concert in which the 99 names of Allah were sung in Westminster Cathedral. In addition to his post about the concert itself, he has a generous and fair-minded post about the protest against it, describing it as “dignified and prayerful.”
  So is the haj, no doubt - that doesn’t make it a Pontifical High Mass. Any more than wearing a mitre makes a man a Catholic; such as Cardinal Mahmud-O’Connor or the Imam Langham (who will doubtless be inflicted on some unfortunate diocese, if this nonsense is not checked).

Why does Catholicism seem to be embracing a religion that completely contridicts the basic doctrines of Christianity and denies the Holy Trinity??? It’s all a bit troubling.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

It is the twin sibling of the issue under contention.

No it is not. Instead of addressing the God of Muhammad - you talked about the God of Jeremiah and Jonah.

Mirdath:

What evidence?

The evidence that the Islamic Allah oppresses Christians and doesn’t know the first thing about Christian theology. If he is the same god wouldn’t you think he would know?

Mirdath:

The Catholic Catechism says Allah is the God of Abraham. John Paul II kissed the Quran and quoted that section of the Catechism as something right and worthy. Benedict has prayed with Muslims.

Your own hierarchy has forsaken the xenophobia you still cling to. Why is it so hard for you to admit that other faiths might worship the same God you do, approaching the throne of the Lord with a sincere desire to love and serve him?

Do you believe Protestants worship the same deity you do? If so, what’s your problem with Muslims?

I already told you I have no problems in saying the catechism is wrong. I will tell you why - I don’t blindly follow the teachings of some scholars who got it wrong. The church isn’t always right. The catechism is not infallible.

Mirdath:

Jeremiah was around well before the Christ, that’d be why. One should note that the Old Testament God did tell the Jews to persecute and slaughter anybody who was in the way, but that’s another discussion.

So your god has no omnicience? He can’t tell the future? He didn’t know that Jesus Christ would come along and that Christians would exist?

Mirdath:

And you take the word of zealots, of bandits, of men who cheat their own brothers, of kings and paupers and prophets and con-men who until a ‘conversion experience’ were happily persecuting you. Don’t talk to me about ‘credibility’.

The point is that the conversion made them good and moral men. That is why the faith is good. There is a concept called redemption.

In contrast, Muhammad remained an evil man despite claiming to speak for the divine.

You see - Christian made the apostles into good men. Islam made Muhammad into evil.

Do you even see this difference? No? Why not?

Mirdath:

That is not the question I asked and has nothing to do with what I presented. You yourself said that the Muslim God is not the Christian God because, and I quote, ‘Their characteristics are so different’. It is a question of differing characteristics viewed on one person, not one of similar characteristics on different persons. Don’t try to dodge.

You have assumed they are ONE person. That is the crux of the issue which you already presumed to be true. I disagree because it is merely a claim by Muhammad that they are one person.

Why would I give credence to someone as demonstrably evil as Muhammad?

Do you even see the poverty of your argument if you have to presuppose that Islamic Allah and the God as taught by Jesus Christ is already ONE person before you begin your argument?

Sheesh. Next.