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Robert_W_1
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This debate will begin shortly. Jaun will be the moderator. You are asked to join and share your comments, however please keep in mind to be charitable with your comments.
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dmar198
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What’s the topic?
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Robert_W_1
Guest
It will be on baptism. However, it could change after the two debaters and juan decide on a specific topic. It is being carried over from a article off the main page of catholic answers. It started with Mary and has ended up on baptism. There is 330 comments already so we decided to move to a forum. Waiting on all parties to get the message. Hope to hear from you as well.
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Memaw
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Sounds interesting! God Bless, Memaw
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Debbie_Kono
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Eagerly awaiting this debate. Though, there was talk of first hashing out Sola Scriptura.
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dmar198
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Cool. Can you link over to the original thread?
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Robert_W_1
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Matt_Ignatius
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Okay, I’m ready to begin. 
Ed, if you’re on here, I think I addressed everything in your post #332 in my last two posts. And at the end of my last post I meant to say ‘May God Bless You’ not, ‘my God Bless You’
Ed, if you’re on here, I think I addressed everything in your post #332 in my last two posts. And at the end of my last post I meant to say ‘May God Bless You’ not, ‘my God Bless You’
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Robert_W_1
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Good to see you made it Matt. I really admire your charitableness.
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Matt_Ignatius
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Thanks Robert, that is really great to hear.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Sorry dude but CAF has its own moderators and very specific Forum Rules that preclude any such “debates”.
Your thread can certainly proceed, but Juan is out of bounds and the mods will pull the thread if you try to go outside of CAF rules and policies.
I’m happy to participate, but this is CAF…not Yahoo or one of the other junk forums and we need to either go by CAF rules and guidelines or forget it.
Your thread can certainly proceed, but Juan is out of bounds and the mods will pull the thread if you try to go outside of CAF rules and policies.
I’m happy to participate, but this is CAF…not Yahoo or one of the other junk forums and we need to either go by CAF rules and guidelines or forget it.
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Michael_Francis
Guest
***Correct. See the link in my sig line below.
You may PM me with any questions…
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Church_Militant
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By the way, there is already a thread in progress on Sola Scriptura over in Sacred Scripture where so far almost none of the n-Cs have stepped up. See since the Bible is the Word of God it is all we need…
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Robert_W_1
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I understand. First time forum user. Your help will be appreciated dude.
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JuanFlorencio
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Hi Robert, Matthew, Debbie!,
Finally I got here. I guess it is only Edward and Christopher that we are missing now. I hope they can show up soon.
I also wanted to say this to you, Matthew: I admire how temperate you are. I am happy I had the chance to read your posts.
JuanFlorencio
Finally I got here. I guess it is only Edward and Christopher that we are missing now. I hope they can show up soon.
I also wanted to say this to you, Matthew: I admire how temperate you are. I am happy I had the chance to read your posts.
JuanFlorencio
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Debbie_Kono
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And Matthew…ditto on what Juan and Robert said of your posts. Very charitable, clear and concise. If fact, I’ve printed off much of your replies as they help me (a current RCIA student) in defending my conversion to my very sad and angry Protestant husband.
Blessings to one and all!
Blessings to one and all!
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Church_Militant
Guest
I hope those guys show up. I don’t understand why someone who opposes something the Church teaches and gets a chance to make his case before us Catholics would fail to capitalize upon that opportunity.
I mean…if truth is important then wouldn’t one want to express it and explain and defend it? That’s the definition of apologetics.
I mean…if truth is important then wouldn’t one want to express it and explain and defend it? That’s the definition of apologetics.
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Debbie_Kono
Guest
The guy you’re waiting for is Ed. He’s like 85 years old…it might be a bit difficult for him to switch gears and learn a new way of posting. No disrespect Ed…I am always amazed at your stamina and feistiness, but can totally relate to not wanting to change to this different way of posting.
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Matt_Ignatius
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Robert, Juan, and Debbie,
I am honoured, thank you so much.
I am honoured, thank you so much.
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Matt_Ignatius
Guest
Hi Ed, hopefully your on the forum and can read this. Here’s the answer to your first of the two comments you sent. What you said is in italics to make it easier to read.
On losing your salvation, I could go into that and why it’s not the case that you have to be un-baptised, etc, but I’ll stick with the topic for now. However, I really would like to hear what you have to say about your church denomination and everything. Also, I have much more than just those four verses concerning water baptism saving you.
*YOU SAID: So when we get baptized it’s showing our repentance as John the Baptist says what it does (Mat.3:11) “I baptize you with water, for repentance, But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, ----.He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” And that’s being answered by Jesus, Himself in (Acts 1:5) when He says, “For John baptized you with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” ----- Please Note! -----The Holy Spirit’s baptism does NOT come by water, as evidence at Pentecost being FILLED (Acts 2:4) (Acts 8:17) (Acts 9:17) (Acts 10:44) (Acts 19:6) *
MY RESPONSE: I totally agree that we have to look at the whole sentence and the whole context—and we always should do that. But what I think is that if you add the rest of 1Pet. 3:21 onto “baptism… now saves you,” the Catholic position is strengthened, because at baptism the water is not a removal of dirt from the body, it’s a removal of sin from your soul. And baptism is also a pledge of good conscience to God because we have all our sins washed away so our conscience is clear!
Again, John’s baptism was different from that of Jesus’. We can see that being baptised into John’s baptism was not enough for disciples in Ephesus in Acts 19, for they then had to be baptised into Jesus’.
Yes, Jesus baptises us with the Holy Spirit in our water baptism, which is different from John’s baptism, which, as can be seen, was only a baptism of repentance. As for those four verses you gave:
Acts 2:4, this was a special case when the Spirit was first given.
Acts 8:17, I have already explained how this is seen by Catholics in my last post.
Acts 9:17, I have also explained why Paul did not receive the Spirit here but at baptism in my earlier posts.
Acts 10:44, I posted this in my first post but I will put it again here: In this verse where Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit before baptism I would see as a very special case. The Gentiles were regarded by the Jews as mere dogs and not worthy of being in God’s covenant. What God did in showing Saint Peter that Gentiles could enter the Covenant—by giving them the Spirit before baptism—was an extremely special outpouring of God’s grace, the result of which (the Gentiles receiving the Spirit) was enough to overturn centuries of Jewish belief and allow Gentiles into the Covenant. Notice that the whole household of Cornelius got baptised straight after though.
Acts 19:6, this is like Acts 8:17 and I have explained this as well.
YOU SAID: Look what you say here, “(1Pet. 3:21) too. When St. Peter says that baptism “now saves you” doesn’t that obviously mean that it saves your soul? What else could it be talking about?” LOOK WHAT YOU SAY HERE,We’re not saying Noah’s soul was saved through the flood, only his life, but this does nothing to dismiss the point of the verse. That’’ an oxymoron, you say yes water saves souls, then Noah’s soul didn’t get saved
MY RESPONSE: First, if baptism doesn’t save your soul, what then does it save? In the case of Noah’s soul not being saved but his body being saved: The way St. Paul is using language here is the same way as I might say:
“Bob got HIT really hard by a bus driving at full speed. After he was out of hospital, he was HIT just as hard with inspiration to write a book about his experience.”
In that sentence, after he got out of hospital, does it mean that Bob wasn’t really hit by inspiration at all, instead he was hit just as hard again in a physical way as when he was hit by the bus? No, that sentence is just a way of using language to show that Bob was hit suddenly by inspiration in a spiritual kind of way. Writers use language like this all the time in their writing to emphasise their point. So it is with Paul. He says the Noah’s body was saved in a physical way, to emphasise his point that our souls are saved in a spiritual way in baptism.
Hopefully that made sense^
You said that there was no Scripture support water baptism washing away our sins, well if you read Acts 22:16 it certainly seems like it. And baptism corresponds to this and washes away all sin in us. But of course, sin returned because God gave us all free will and we are all born with a tendency to sin passed down to us from Adam in Original Sin.
More will be coming soon.
Here’s the answer to your first of the two comments you sent. What you said is in italics to make it easier to read.On losing your salvation, I could go into that and why it’s not the case that you have to be un-baptised, etc, but I’ll stick with the topic for now. However, I really would like to hear what you have to say about your church denomination and everything. Also, I have much more than just those four verses concerning water baptism saving you.
*YOU SAID: So when we get baptized it’s showing our repentance as John the Baptist says what it does (Mat.3:11) “I baptize you with water, for repentance, But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, ----.He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” And that’s being answered by Jesus, Himself in (Acts 1:5) when He says, “For John baptized you with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” ----- Please Note! -----The Holy Spirit’s baptism does NOT come by water, as evidence at Pentecost being FILLED (Acts 2:4) (Acts 8:17) (Acts 9:17) (Acts 10:44) (Acts 19:6) *
MY RESPONSE: I totally agree that we have to look at the whole sentence and the whole context—and we always should do that. But what I think is that if you add the rest of 1Pet. 3:21 onto “baptism… now saves you,” the Catholic position is strengthened, because at baptism the water is not a removal of dirt from the body, it’s a removal of sin from your soul. And baptism is also a pledge of good conscience to God because we have all our sins washed away so our conscience is clear!
Again, John’s baptism was different from that of Jesus’. We can see that being baptised into John’s baptism was not enough for disciples in Ephesus in Acts 19, for they then had to be baptised into Jesus’.
Yes, Jesus baptises us with the Holy Spirit in our water baptism, which is different from John’s baptism, which, as can be seen, was only a baptism of repentance. As for those four verses you gave:
Acts 2:4, this was a special case when the Spirit was first given.
Acts 8:17, I have already explained how this is seen by Catholics in my last post.
Acts 9:17, I have also explained why Paul did not receive the Spirit here but at baptism in my earlier posts.
Acts 10:44, I posted this in my first post but I will put it again here: In this verse where Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit before baptism I would see as a very special case. The Gentiles were regarded by the Jews as mere dogs and not worthy of being in God’s covenant. What God did in showing Saint Peter that Gentiles could enter the Covenant—by giving them the Spirit before baptism—was an extremely special outpouring of God’s grace, the result of which (the Gentiles receiving the Spirit) was enough to overturn centuries of Jewish belief and allow Gentiles into the Covenant. Notice that the whole household of Cornelius got baptised straight after though.
Acts 19:6, this is like Acts 8:17 and I have explained this as well.
YOU SAID: Look what you say here, “(1Pet. 3:21) too. When St. Peter says that baptism “now saves you” doesn’t that obviously mean that it saves your soul? What else could it be talking about?” LOOK WHAT YOU SAY HERE,We’re not saying Noah’s soul was saved through the flood, only his life, but this does nothing to dismiss the point of the verse. That’’ an oxymoron, you say yes water saves souls, then Noah’s soul didn’t get saved
MY RESPONSE: First, if baptism doesn’t save your soul, what then does it save? In the case of Noah’s soul not being saved but his body being saved: The way St. Paul is using language here is the same way as I might say:
“Bob got HIT really hard by a bus driving at full speed. After he was out of hospital, he was HIT just as hard with inspiration to write a book about his experience.”
In that sentence, after he got out of hospital, does it mean that Bob wasn’t really hit by inspiration at all, instead he was hit just as hard again in a physical way as when he was hit by the bus? No, that sentence is just a way of using language to show that Bob was hit suddenly by inspiration in a spiritual kind of way. Writers use language like this all the time in their writing to emphasise their point. So it is with Paul. He says the Noah’s body was saved in a physical way, to emphasise his point that our souls are saved in a spiritual way in baptism.
Hopefully that made sense^
You said that there was no Scripture support water baptism washing away our sins, well if you read Acts 22:16 it certainly seems like it.
And baptism corresponds to this and washes away all sin in us. But of course, sin returned because God gave us all free will and we are all born with a tendency to sin passed down to us from Adam in Original Sin.More will be coming soon.
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