A basic logical argument for the morality of abortion

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ByzCath said:
Using unapproved (actually the local bishops’ have condemned it) private revelation does not support your argument. Even if the Church did proclaim this private revelation as “worthy of belief” it would not change any thing as approved private revelation are not required to be believed in by the faithful nor can it add anything to the Deposit of Faith.
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Grrrrrr! :banghead:
I know. I never tried to use it as factual proof of anything. Which is why used words like “if you believe” and “according to.”

I’m not saying Medjugorje DID or DID NOT happen, neither am I saying we are required to believe what may have been revealed. I was just stating a fact - “according to…”
 
catharina said:
good grief to you, debora.
the CHURCH says babies DO NOT go to hell.

Look it up.

In case you DON’T look it up, here it is.

**C.C.C. # 1261 "As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. **
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I know this passage. Where does it say “unbaptized children do not go to Hell?” It doesn’t. It says we trust God to know where they should go. Personally, I believe they go straight to heaven, without a doubt in my mind. Nonetheless, the passage says that the Church truly can’t say it knows for sure. Limbo has been completely wiped out of the Catechism. There are 2 other options for these babies - purgatory, or Hell.
 
Debora123 said:
I know this passage. Where does it say “unbaptized children do not go to Hell?” It doesn’t. It says we trust God to know where they should go. Personally, I believe they go straight to heaven, without a doubt in my mind. Nonetheless, the passage says that the Church truly can’t say it knows for sure. Limbo has been completely wiped out of the Catechism. There are 2 other options for these babies - purgatory, or Hell.
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So in the debora-world, the Church’s recognition of our entrusting such children to God is equal to saying “Oh yeah - and they might go to hell.” No, debora - even for you with your thinking, that’s way too big a stretch.

No one needs the Church to say ‘these babies will not go to hell’ when the actual Church teaching (from the catechism) is contrary to the very thought of it.

PS - what does ANY of this have to do with Medjugorje?
 
catharina said:
So in the debora-world, the Church’s recognition of our entrusting such children to God is equal to saying “Oh yeah - and they might go to hell.” No, debora - even for you with your thinking, that’s way too big a stretch.

No one needs the Church to say ‘these babies will not go to hell’ when the actual Church teaching (from the catechism) is contrary to the very thought of it.

PS - what does ANY of this have to do with Medjugorje?
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Yes, I absolutely believe these children go to Heaven. All I’m saying here is that the Church is saying she cannot declare for sure where they go. This leaves any of the 3 destinations open to possibility- Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory.

PS - I mentioned Medjugorje a few posts ago just to say that according to that story, IF you believe in it, there are no children in Hell or Purgatory. (Again, to anyone who might crucify me for mentioning Medjugorje, I did not, in any way shape or form say that Medjugorje is approved apparition. Thank you.)
 
Debora123 said:
Yes, I absolutely believe these children go to Heaven. All I’m saying here is that the Church is saying she cannot declare for sure where they go. This leaves any of the 3 destinations open to possibility- Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory.

PS - I mentioned Medjugorje a few posts ago just to say that according to that story, IF you believe in it, there are no children in Hell or Purgatory. (Again, to anyone who might crucify me for mentioning Medjugorje, I did not, in any way shape or form say that Medjugorje is approved apparition. Thank you.)
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So again, you choose to side with other than Church Teaching -
just as you’ve argued that a woman on the pill for medical reasons
“should” be able to use condoms too - to prevent endangered conceptions.

It’s becoming more easy to see that you are consistent in your
stance opposed to the Church’s teaching on a variety of things.

PS - I sitll see no point at all to your mention of Medjugore.
 
catharina said:
It’s becoming more easy to see that you are consistent in your
stance opposed to the Church’s teaching on a variety of things.
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Who do Catholics rely on–themselves or the Church? :doh2:
 
Maybe aborted babies go to purgatory? To be cleansed of original sin and any potential lack of faith?
 
catharina said:
So in the debora-world, the Church’s recognition of our entrusting such children to God is equal to saying “Oh yeah - and they might go to hell.” No, debora - even for you with your thinking, that’s way too big a stretch.
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No, in the world of Church Teaching it tells us that the Church does not know and trusts God’s Mercy in this matter, period.

There is no official Teaching in the Catholic Church that says unbaptized babies go to Heaven just as there is no Teaching that says they go to Hell.

There is a Church Teaching that says baptism is necessary for salvation.
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation…

So with that, the best we can do is trust to God in this matter.
 
Wow! Chill with the arguing! As far as I’m concerned, the original poster submitted an argument that we’ve all been able to successfully dismiss = end of story. Why are we continuing to feed evil, and arguing and insulting one another while beating a dead horse??? I think we all find the idea unfathomable that aborted babies go to hell or whatever (they are not guilt of sin, sin being what separates us from God, and God works thru the sacraments but is not bound by them) Excuse me for not having exact quotes here, and no, I am not inventing my own doctrine. So please. I’m sure you are all very Good Catholics who love God, so chilll and stop getting caught up in this ****.

By the way, I understand the irony of me continuing this thread in suggesting we don’t continue this thread! LOL 🙂
 
Debora123 said:
I’m pretty sure it’s been established now that aborted babies do go to heaven. It may not be in Church doctrine, because realistically we have no way of saying for sure that we know anyone’s fate unless they are canonized as saints. But it is safe to assume, and as Catholics we do assume, that they go to heaven.
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I agree with you Debra. As we believe in a merciful, just God, why cant we believe that unbaptised babies who have really no choice, go to heaven.
 
My mother had a stillborn son. He was buried in an unmarked grave as the Church would not then bury him in consecrated ground and my father believed in unquestioning obedience to the Church or perhaps it was to a priest who advised him. I was very young then and I was horrified. I am horrified now by Catholics who even suggest that unbaptised babies may not go to heaven. The Church now accepts that non Catholics/Christians can go to heaven too. These are innocent babies who do no wrong.

The OP threw out something which in my opinion is flawed logic but why make so unChristian statements of where unbaptised babies go. If you think there is no certainty as to their going to heaven, please keep that thought to yourself.

I know there is nothing in the Church’es teachings on this but I have wondered whether the souls of still born, aborted and all babies who die young and have never really lived in this world go into newborn babies who grow up and live their lives. This is purely my hopeful thinking.
 
severus68 said:
My mother had a stillborn son. He was buried in an unmarked grave as the Church would not then bury him in consecrated ground and my father believed in unquestioning obedience to the Church or perhaps it was to a priest who advised him. I was very young then and I was horrified. I am horrified now by Catholics who even suggest that unbaptised babies may not go to heaven. The Church now accepts that non Catholics/Christians can go to heaven too. These are innocent babies who do no wrong.

The OP threw out something which in my opinion is flawed logic but why make so unChristian statements of where unbaptised babies go. If you think there is no certainty as to their going to heaven, please keep that thought to yourself.

I know there is nothing in the Church’es teachings on this but I have wondered whether the souls of still born, aborted and all babies who die young and have never really lived in this world go into newborn babies who grow up and live their lives. This is purely my hopeful thinking.
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Anyone that believes that unborn babies do not go to heaven (and must go to either hell or limbo or somewhere else) can’t possibly believe in a loving and merciful God. Everyone says “why punish the child for the crimes of their parents” when someone gets an abortion, but why would God do just that? A loving God would not send an aborted baby to anywhere but heaven and if you disagree please map out an argument that could possibly suggest otherwise.
 
catharina said:
So again, you choose to side with other than Church Teaching -
just as you’ve argued that a woman on the pill for medical reasons
“should” be able to use condoms too - to prevent endangered conceptions.

It’s becoming more easy to see that you are consistent in your
stance opposed to the Church’s teaching on a variety of things.

PS - I sitll see no point at all to your mention of Medjugore.
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Ok Catharina, how am I not siding with Church teaching?? What are you even talking about??

All I’m saying here is that the Church cannot say it knows where these babies go. Therefore, even though I believe with no doubt in my mind that they go right to heaven, as far as the Church is concerned, they could end up in either one of these 3 places: Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory.

You stated that the Church says these babies DON’T go to Hell. I’m just trying to tell you that the Church DOES NOT say they don’t go to Hell. The Church says it doesn’t know. That means anything is open to possibility.

PS - OK! Sorry for mentioning it.
 
commoncents said:
Anyone that believes that unborn babies do not go to heaven (and must go to either hell or limbo or somewhere else) can’t possibly believe in a loving and merciful God. Everyone says “why punish the child for the crimes of their parents” when someone gets an abortion, but why would God do just that? A loving God would not send an aborted baby to anywhere but heaven and if you disagree please map out an argument that could possibly suggest otherwise.
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That is exactly what i was saying in effect. As I believe in a loving and merciful God I believe all babies, aborted or otherwise, go to heaven.

On your original post, if someone feels that she did not want to have her child to possibly suffer in this world or go to hell or whatever , she should just not have children. Why would such a person choose to get pregnant and then abort the child?
 
commoncents said:
Anyone that believes that unborn babies do not go to heaven (and must go to either hell or limbo or somewhere else) can’t possibly believe in a loving and merciful God. Everyone says “why punish the child for the crimes of their parents” when someone gets an abortion, but why would God do just that? A loving God would not send an aborted baby to anywhere but heaven and if you disagree please map out an argument that could possibly suggest otherwise.
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I agree 100%, trust me.

When I talk to Catholics who have had miscarried children, or when I listen to Catholic speeches by people who have gone through this, they always mention that they “have a child already waiting for them in heaven.”

Sure, the Church doesn’t say that they for sure go to Heaven, but that’s only bc it can’t. But it’s a pretty common Catholic belief to assume with confidence that they do.
 
This thread is a joke, right? (I’ve only read the OP.) Commoncents or common sense - I think not!
 
commoncents said:
Anyone that believes that unborn babies do not go to heaven (and must go to either hell or limbo or somewhere else) can’t possibly believe in a loving and merciful God. Everyone says “why punish the child for the crimes of their parents” when someone gets an abortion, but why would God do just that? A loving God would not send an aborted baby to anywhere but heaven and if you disagree please map out an argument that could possibly suggest otherwise.
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Fine, let’s say they go to heaven - what convinces you that they would receive the maximally great form of the beatific vision that they could receive by virtues on earth (as a result of being alive)?

You still haven’t answered me on why you are so hateful towards religion.
 
Pieman333272 said:
Fine, let’s say they go to heaven - what convinces you that they would receive the maximally great form of the beatific vision that they could receive by virtues on earth (as a result of being alive)?

You still haven’t answered me on why you are so hateful towards religion.
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I’m not really hateful towards religion. Some of the closest people in the world to me are devout Catholics. I think that religion can help people become better people and deal with stress, anxiety, and life problems in a better way. I do think that there needs to be some room to think for yourself though. The pharisees knew the law better than anyone and they followed it perfectly but Jesus told them that was wrong. Is it better to heal someone on the sabbath or not work? It is simple logic but sometimes I feel like people on these forums get mixed up and are more like the pharisees than like Jesus. Love is what Jesus preached and some of the utter disgust and hatred I see preached on these boards about homosexuals, pro choicers, etc. is the opposite of what Jesus taught.
 
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