A Biblical reference to Limbo?

[Peter_Dawson]

In 2 Corinthians 12:1-5, Paul refers to his being caught up to “third heaven” when God talked to him on the road to Damascus. The third heaven would be that place where the Trinity dwells. The second heaven would be the place of the Beatific Vision. The first heaven would be Limbo.

What do you think?

 

[BrianLC]

interesting. I work in a Christian bookstore and we sell an apologetics study Bible and one of the things it mentions is Purgatory and it says there is nothing in the Bible to support it but I would disagre, I might offer up this for evidence and also I forget the verse of book but i think it might be Hebrews and it says that during the three days Christ was dead he ministered to those who had died before the flood, or something like that.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

interesting. I work in a Christian bookstore and we sell an apologetics study Bible and one of the things it mentions is Purgatory and it says there is nothing in the Bible to support it but I would disagre, I might offer up this for evidence and also I forget the verse of book but i think it might be Hebrews and it says that during the three days Christ was dead he ministered to those who had died before the flood, or something like that.

I treat the lowest heaven, the first heaven, as Limbo, not Purgatory, because Purgatory is a fierce punishment, and it is tremporary, only.

Limbo should be about as comfortable and as uncomfortable as Earth (in order to reflect God’s perfect justice) and so should be something better than punishment. And, it should be a permanent state. So, I treat it as “the lowest Heaven.” My wife and I lost a daughter a few days before she was to be born. I gave her a name and baptized her. But I don’t think that baptism attaches after death.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

In 2 Corinthians 12:1-5, Paul refers to his being caught up to “third heaven” when God talked to him on the road to Damascus. The third heaven would be that place where the Trinity dwells. The second heaven would be the place of the Beatific Vision. The first heaven would be Limbo.

What do you think?

No. (An animated head-shaking icon would be perfect for this…)​

It’s an interesting idea, but it looks TM as though it owes much more to trying to find Biblical evidence for all things Catholic, than it does to Paul’s own intellectual milieu.

Which is to look at the text back to front - we need to find out what the text would mean in its original context, rather than taking Catholic Thing X, finding something in the text that looks as though it could describe CT X, then saying that the text supports or evidences CT X The irony is that Catholics often say (with pride ?) “We do not base our doctrine on the Bible; instead, the Bible is evidence of what we already, & for other reasons, believe”.

There is evidence of a Jewish belief in punishment in heaven - odd as that sounds; but not AFAIK of heaven as including a heaven in which the righteous of Israel were detained while awaiting something better. The heavens are also numbered as seven, which complicates matters, or as ten.

More to the point: Paul is not talking about the post mortem state in that passage, or anywhere in those chapters: he is continuing the theme of 1 Cor.11, in which he “boasts” of his “advantages” over his critics in Corinth who boasted of their spiritual gifts, showing that if they boast of X & Y & Z as their credentials, he can out-do them every time. His argument is ad hominem: if they base their credentials on their charismatic experiences & graces, & reason from these that they are true apostles & that he, with his lack of “presence” & his unimpressiveness, is not; even so, he can outdo them, even if he adopts their own - as he will show, mistaken - line of reasoning.

The beginning of chapter 12 is about the hearing of Divine secrets - a theme of very great importance in certain strands of Second Temple Judaism: it is a standard part of apocalyptic visions, inside the OT & out. For Christians it was of interest because Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet: more than that - Jesus is God’s Secret, & God’s Revealer & Revelation.

So the whole idea of Divine secrecy & mystery could hardly be more important

Paul lets his “heavenly ascent” - another theme of great importance in his theology - go for nothing; he emphasises, not that, not his labours and sufferings for the Gospel (which he lists), but something else: love. Chapter 13 is a masterpiece of tact & gentleness: he does not denounce the Corinthians, but shows them, indirectly, that what matters supremely is not the experiences they boasted of, not his own experiences great & amazing as they were, but love.

In this context, including the context of those first few verses of chapter 12, Limbo does not really have any place; there is no reason to mention it. Paul is talking about entirely different matters.

 

[thistle]

In 2 Corinthians 12:1-5, Paul refers to his being caught up to “third heaven” when God talked to him on the road to Damascus. The third heaven would be that place where the Trinity dwells. The second heaven would be the place of the Beatific Vision. The first heaven would be Limbo.

What do you think?

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 4. Caught up into paradise. St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas are of opinion that this third heaven and paradise are the same place, and designate the abode of the blessed. In order to understand the language of the apostle, we must observe that the Hebrews distinguished three different heavens. The first comprised the air, the clouds, &c. as far as the fixed stars. The second included all the fixed stars; and the third was the abode of Angels, in which God himself discovered his infinite glory, &c. The first is called in Scripture simply the heavens, the second the firmament, and the third the heaven of heavens. (Calmet)

 

[Peter_Dawson]

No. (An animated head-shaking icon would be perfect for this…)​

It’s an interesting idea, but it looks TM as though it owes much more to trying to find Biblical evidence for all things Catholic, than it does to Paul’s own intellectual milieu.

Which is to look at the text back to front - we need to find out what the text would mean in its original context, rather than taking Catholic Thing X, finding something in the text that looks as though it could describe CT X, then saying that the text supports or evidences CT X The irony is that Catholics often say (with pride ?) “We do not base our doctrine on the Bible; instead, the Bible is evidence of what we already, & for other reasons, believe”.

There is evidence of a Jewish belief in punishment in heaven - odd as that sounds; but not AFAIK of heaven as including a heaven in which the righteous of Israel were detained while awaiting something better. The heavens are also numbered as seven, which complicates matters, or as ten.

More to the point: Paul is not talking about the post mortem state in that passage, or anywhere in those chapters: he is continuing the theme of 1 Cor.11, in which he “boasts” of his “advantages” over his critics in Corinth who boasted of their spiritual gifts, showing that if they boast of X & Y & Z as their credentials, he can out-do them every time. His argument is ad hominem: if they base their credentials on their charismatic experiences & graces, & reason from these that they are true apostles & that he, with his lack of “presence” & his unimpressiveness, is not; even so, he can outdo them, even if he adopts their own - as he will show, mistaken - line of reasoning.

The beginning of chapter 12 is about the hearing of Divine secrets - a theme of very great importance in certain strands of Second Temple Judaism: it is a standard part of apocalyptic visions, inside the OT & out. For Christians it was of interest because Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet: more than that - Jesus is God’s Secret, & God’s Revealer & Revelation.

So the whole idea of Divine secrecy & mystery could hardly be more important

Paul lets his “heavenly ascent” - another theme of great importance in his theology - go for nothing; he emphasises, not that, not his labours and sufferings for the Gospel (which he lists), but something else: love. Chapter 13 is a masterpiece of tact & gentleness: he does not denounce the Corinthians, but shows them, indirectly, that what matters supremely is not the experiences they boasted of, not his own experiences great & amazing as they were, but love.

In this context, including the context of those first few verses of chapter 12, Limbo does not really have any place; there is no reason to mention it. Paul is talking about entirely different matters.

Hi, GofG.

I liked your comment about my mental perspective re interpreting Scripture, and I will incorporate it into my “library of mental processes,” but not to a “mortal extent.” Scripture itself teaches that salvation comes from various places. It even teaches that our religious leaders bring out not only what is old – what is already taught in Scripture – but also what is “new” – not yet taught!

[52] Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. Matthew 13:52.

With the result that it is satisfactory to look into Scripture for things ratifying that which is taught outside of Scripture.

Christ Himself does that.

In Christianity, Talmud-like commentaries on the Scriptures are not as generally available as in Judaism.

I will find what I can on Paul’s three Heavens.

Note that the end result of your good analysis, above, is something which some would call a bad result: You seem to somewhat dismiss Paul’s three Heavens.

 

[grannymh]

In 2 Corinthians 12:1-5, Paul refers to his being caught up to “third heaven” when God talked to him on the road to Damascus. The third heaven would be that place where the Trinity dwells. The second heaven would be the place of the Beatific Vision. The first heaven would be Limbo.

What do you think?

The Beatific Vision IS the Trinity.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

The Beatific Vision IS the Trinity.

I’m fairly certain that even in the Beatific Vision we do not get to see God perfectly. I think that only the other Persons of God can do that.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Here is a concise critique on the afterlife litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Heaven%2C+Hell%2C+and+the+Afterlife

As for the 3rd Heaven, I understand it to be Heaven where the saints and angels are with the Lord. The 1st heaven is the sky, and the 2nd heaven is outer space.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Here is a concise critique on the afterlife litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Heaven%2C+Hell%2C+and+the+Afterlife

As for the 3rd Heaven, I understand it to be Heaven where the saints and angels are with the Lord. The 1st heaven is the sky, and the 2nd heaven is outer space.

God’s sovereignty is violated if we apprehend each member of the Trinity as each member of the Trinity apprehends each other. Therefore, the Beatific Vision can’t be a perfect look at God. No human being ever can see God in all of His unapproachable light.

So, He can give us a better look, the same way He granted Moses a better look, but it won’t be all of the way. Therefore, in some sense, there has to be a place above the Beatific Vision.

That’s two Heavens.

Therefore, a third Heaven, below the Beatific Vision, accomodates Limbo.

 

[COPLAND_3]

God’s sovereignty is violated if we apprehend each member of the Trinity as each member of the Trinity apprehends each other. Therefore, the Beatific Vision can’t be a perfect look at God. No human being ever can see God in all of His unapproachable light.

So, He can give us a better look, the same way He granted Moses a better look, but it won’t be all of the way. Therefore, in some sense, there has to be a place above the Beatific Vision.

That’s two Heavens.

Therefore, a third Heaven, below the Beatific Vision, accomodates Limbo.

I think we are taking the 3rd Heaven in a different sense, you are looking at it in the spiritual sense while I am looking at it literally. Not that I don’t agree with your idea about the Beatific Vision, I’m just not convince that it was specifically what St. Paul meant concerning the 3rd Heaven.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

I think we are taking the 3rd Heaven in a different sense, you are looking at it in the spiritual sense while I am looking at it literally. Not that I don’t agree with your idea about the Beatific Vision, I’m just not convince that it was specifically what St. Paul meant concerning the 3rd Heaven.

I agree that my analysis respecting the ID of Paul’s three Heavens is an educated guess by me.It was a “nook” in Scripture where I could “tuck” Limbo.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

I’m a little bit prejudiced on this issue. I lost a 9 month daughter to a cord accident, just before birth. I baptized little Rachel, but she was gone when I did it, so I think that it was too late. Thus, my motivation to study Limbo theology.

 

[grannymh]

I’m a little bit prejudiced on this issue. I lost a 9 month daughter to a cord accident, just before birth. I baptized little Rachel, but she was gone when I did it, so I think that it was too late. Thus, my motivation to study Limbo theology.

Please accept my sincere sympathy. While I cannot imagine the depth of your pain, I can understand its reality because this kind of accident happened to a young friend of mine. She, her husband, and their two older sons spent time loving their baby regardless.

From the Catholic Church’s point of view, one can’t really tell the moment when the soul leaves the body. Thus, you were right to baptize Rachel. We should not underestimate the power of God to touch a soul that has been living for nine months. As paragraph 1257, Catechism of the Catholic Church says: “*God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments.” *

It must be remembered that the soul exists from the moment of conception. God, Himself, as Creator of Rachel’s soul, would never abandon her.

**Paragraph 1260 **“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”

Paragraph 1261 Please note that this paragraph supplants the old time ideas of a limbo outside of heaven. These old time ideas were opinions and not declared facts.
As for “limbo theology” – that is a misnomer. Please note that the “hope that there is a way of salvation” refers to being in God’s presence as the goal of salvation and not some lower place.

Paragraph 1261 must be read in the light of paragraphs 1257 and 1260. Paragraph 1261 “As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused Him to say: “Let the children come to Me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.”

As Isaiah 55 points out, “Let him turn to the Lord for mercy; to our God, Who is generous in forgiving. For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are My ways above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts.” Please trust in God’s ways for Rachel.

I’m sure you have seen pictures of Jesus holding children on His lap. Right now, Jesus is holding Rachel.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is loved unconditionally by God from the moment of conception.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Thank you, Granny.

I never stopped thinking of that kid.

We take care of a really cool little Vietnamese girl on weekends. I think that God gave me this little one to take Rachel’s place.

 

[COPLAND_3]

I’m a little bit prejudiced on this issue. I lost a 9 month daughter to a cord accident, just before birth. I baptized little Rachel, but she was gone when I did it, so I think that it was too late. Thus, my motivation to study Limbo theology.

My heart goes out for you. But you really don’t need to worry about Limbo for Rachel because her soul is in Heaven. If anything, she was baptized by desire in order to take away the original sin, and the baptism you gave her was verification that the desire was there. Jesus said concerning children, “for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” Matt. 19:14

Limbo was the place where the saints went before Jesus rose from the dead (Abraham’s bosom), now they go to Heaven and sometimes Purgatory if they need washed up first.

 

[jbowers91]

As for the 3rd Heaven, I understand it to be Heaven where the saints and angels are with the Lord. The 1st heaven is the sky, and the 2nd heaven is outer space.

This is the way that the early Christians would have understood the three heavens.