A brief history of political islam

[chrisse]

I would say that since the Vatican II council the Catholic Church has sought to emphasize common ground with the other Abrahamic faiths in order to promote mutual understanding rather than enmity. I’ll see if I can dig up some doctrinal documents for you.

I think you’ll find that that was indeed tried within the Vatican subsequent to Vatican II, however, as evidenced over the years since, it is what is not common between us that is causing the suffering of countless innocent people, muslim and non-muslim, in the world today, as it has always in the past.

You may need to do some research on The Common Word presented by the 138 muslim scholars to understand the difficulty of this approach.

Pope Benedict is now stressing that the truth must first be established and acknowledged before any real dialogue can take place in order that interreligious dialogue is not a compromise on our beliefs. Further, this was said in particular with the interreligious dialogue the Vatican is engaged in with the Al Azhar scholars. It would seem that the Vatican is also getting a good dose of dawa presented to it.

Quite funny really, the Al Azhar scholars should know that the Vatican holds many historical documents covering many “interractions” over its 2000 year history, which would certainly include those “interractions” with the moors and saracens, commonly known today as muslims.

 

[chrisse]

Students of terrorism can easily trace the IRA’s connections to the PLO and its numerous factions back to the 1970s and 1980s, when IRA and PLO operatives trained together in Libya and the Bekaa Valley. Today, IRA involvement is ongoing in Colombia, where al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad factions — to name a few — are engaged in illegal arms and drug trafficking and money-laundering. Recent revelations about al Qaeda training methods has been also identified as carrying some of the IRA’s trademarks. If the EU and the Bush administration would unify their terrorist lists with “global reach” to include all terrorist organizations — including the IRA, Hezbollah, all Palestinian terror organizations, and the ELN — we might then have a better chance to win the war on terrorism.

So, who taught who?

 

[tomarin]

Ha! Anyone can post anything in wikipedia. I did it once myself. I’m sure some Islam apologists wouldn’t pass up that golden opportunity. Besides, if what Islam did was so great, why aren’t Islamic sciences, etc., 500 years ahead of the West?

Nobody knows why the decline happened; civilizations do fall apart sometimes. But from the 700’s to the 1200’s it appears they were firing on all cylinders and yes, the majority of the scientists were indeed muslims. If you don’t believe me do a search on amazon for “islamic science”.

 

[sedonaman]

I would say that since the Vatican II council the Catholic Church has sought to emphasize common ground with the other Abrahamic faiths in order to promote mutual understanding rather than enmity…

I am not convinced that Islam is a “faith” … much less an Abrahamic faith. In fact, I don’t think it is a religion at all:

Anyone can stand up and claim to have a message from God or about God. But the question is, as people who sincerely want to know, how are we to determine whether or not someone is actually speaking the truth from God? How are we to know if they are speaking divine truths or if they are just pretending or delusional?

In light of these questions, let’s consider for a moment what would happen if Mohammed and the Koran did not claim to be a part of previous scriptural and apostolic traditions. Essentially, there are only two choices. Mohammed can confirm previous scriptures and apostles and attempt to claim validity for himself by means of those past apostles and scriptures. Or, Mohammed can deny those previous scriptures and apostles and stand alone by himself as one voice speaking against them.

To understand the significance of this, we must understand that Mohammed admittedly performed no miracles.

The fact that Mohammed himself performed no miracles to attest to his message is made even more ironic by the fact that according to the Koran some of the previous apostles, which the Koran appeals to for validation, did perform miracles.

Since Mohammed performed no miracles, if there was to be some independent confirmation that Mohammed was sent by God and not just making it up as he went along, the validation for his message would have to come in some other way. And for such independent corroboration, the Koran appeals to the previous apostles (prophets) and the previous scriptures. And herein lies the benefit to Mohammed for affirming and claiming a place among these other apostles and scriptures. Simply put, Mohammed’s only method of validation that he was not just making things up came from his appeal to other known apostles and scriptures as confirmation of his own message. Without confirmation from other apostles and scriptures, Mohammed had no means or argument to defend himself from the accusation that he was inventing the Koran himself. We should also add that the Koran itself records repeatedly that Mohammed was accused of making up the Koran himself.

We can clearly see the inescapable dilemma that Mohammed is in.

On the one hand, Mohammed performs no miracles. So, in order to demonstrate that he is not making up the Koran by himself, he must appeal to previous apostles and scriptures as confirmation of his validity.

But, on the other hand, if Mohammed affirms previous apostles and scriptures as being sent from God in order to support his own authenticity, then Mohammed becomes subject to comparison with their teaching.

Simply put, if Mohammed and the Koran are contradicted by the very proof that they appeal to, then we can and should conclude that Islam is incorrect.

…in the Koran, Mohammed repeatedly affirms the divine origin and trueness of Judeo-Christian apostles and scriptures in order to confirm his own authenticity. We have also now thoroughly demonstrated the very clear extent to which the Koran itself contradicts the very apostles and scriptures it affirms as the true work of God.

[Base on a comparison of St. Paul’s writings, the Nicene Creed of the fourth century, and modern belief, we have also shown that Christian doctrine had not changed in the centuries before Mohammed, as he claimed to justify his own prophethood.]

Consequently, since Mohammed’s evidence for the Koran and Islam are based entirely upon appeals to these other scriptures combined with the assertion that the Koran is flawless, the entire supportive evidence for the Koran and Islam has been wiped out as a result of these contradictions with Judeo-Christian scripture. This is particularly the case since, as we have seen, Mohammed repeatedly and explicitly condemns any attempt to discriminate against or accept only portions of the previously revealed scriptures.

The conclusion to our comparative survey of the Koran and Judeo-Christianity is simply this. Mohammed has asserted himself as man sent from God to correct two religions that are established with their own scriptures and predate him by over five hundred and well over two thousand years respectively. Mohammed’s teaching contradicts the fundamental teaching of both of these religions. And the result of Mohammed’s revision of these existing religions is to make Mohammed himself the pinnacle and greatest figure of them both. The practical result is that Mohammed himself receives both a means of income through the spoils of war as well as unquestionable political authority among his followers. Mohammed performs no miracles and offers no evidence to substantiate his claim to have been sent with God’s message. And Mohammed spreads his religion through obligatory military fighting and by providing financial benefits to both converts and combatants who fight to spread his religion.

In summary, there is no reason for any objective theist to believe that Mohammed’s message is from God or that Mohammed is anything more than a man preaching a self-serving message that was spread by the normal, natural human efforts of war and financial benefit.

Ref: biblestudying.net/islam1.html

 

[chrisse]

It appears then that you choose to ignore the plight of people living under the Islamic political system, which has it’s basis in shariah/fiqh, which derives totally from the qur’an/hadiths. Do so. But please remember, as you can call people names so you can be called - that’s an opinion. Put forward your opinion, please do, but if you continue to categorise people with empty taunts in order to silence or denigrate them and/or present yourself as more pious, knowledgeable and genuine, then do not be surprised if you are challenged.

For me it is simple. I couldn’t care one iota about the religion of islam - it cannot challenge the Truth of our Lord. I do care about the political/social system that has existed for it’s entirety to various degrees only and the subsequent abuse of humanity that is it’s sole intention. I do care that our own historical knowledge as taught has been negligent in this area and must be brought to the fresh air of truth and critical evaluation.
I do care that there are contributors here on behalf of islam who are wilfully

So, please, continue contributing your opinion on the topic, and please save us from your opinion of your own worth compared to others. I have one Judge to whom I answer, and it is not you.

 

[R_not]

Sorry, then I will have to recant and say there is very little in this century that the muslims have done in the field. Much less than I first thought. No surprise there.

 

[R_not]

That’s simply not true, R_not. If you look at wikipedia’s article on science in medieval islam, you will see that the vast majority of those scientists were muslims.

You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

I don’t really trust Wikipedia for a lot of things. And especially on this subject because we still find in too many muslim countries people who believe that the earth is flat. But even so - most accomplishments are centuries old, as I initially stated. And what did they do with all these discoveries? Not much. It would be like discovering the wheel. If someone didn’t discover that it would take at least one more to help balance out a carryall in the middle, or 3 more for a wagon, then the wheel is just about useless.

believers vs unbelievers contributions

Fjordman: islam, the Greeks and the Scientific Revolution, Part 1
Part2
Part3

For this post I will leave on this note:

The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.
No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.
– Sir Winston Churchill (The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 [London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899]).

 

[R_not]

And their anti-semitism stagnates them too. Here we have some examples of what Israel does with far fewer people.

israeliconsulatela.org/culture/Science.asp
levitt.com/news/2005/08/04/57-contributions-israel-has-made-to-the-world/
take-a-pen.org/english/Articles/Art04012005.htm

A quick validation on the Israeli vs. other country patents:
mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts%20About%20Israel/Science%20-%20Technology/SCIENCE%20AND%20TECHNOLOGY-%20Research%20and%20Developmen

And we are talking in pure volumes the number of muslims vs Israelis here and it shows us who out performs who.

I can also give a personal example of muslim, specifically Arab, know how in the area of science. My signficant other wen to Saudi Arabia to work for Aramco in the 1970s. (he is now dead due to alcoholism because, I believe, what he saw over there - a beheading of a woman with no witnesses to her rape, a man whose hand was chopped off, and muslims just driving over people with the big earth mover vehicles. From what he described, later on I figured they might have been cast off slaves)

He said the muslims were slow learners, they couldn’t do the easiest of jobs. He was really disgusted with them. and in my later years I have read a book, the ‘Princes of Darkness’ and realized why they are so behind and have to have foreign workers to do most things - their focus is on the koran. The degree that most get are in islamic studies. At one time they even tried to bribe the youth to take other subjects but few took that bribe. It is why their largest exports are jihadists, and oil. We see those exports in the form of clerics and those willing to wage jihad in a more warlike fashion.

Now, how can one be teaching subjects like advanced math, science, etc when they don’t go for those types of degrees. Many who do get those subjects are ones who leave the muslim countries and study abroad. I won’t even go into history since we see how muslims learn history. Go back and read some of planten’s posts when he mentions some historical time period. It is like a fairy tale of sorts. Who knows where he gets his stuff!!

 

[R_not]

Hysterical? When we have muslims here in compounds around our country realizing that their terrorist training above ground is upsetting the neighbors so their campaign to fool us that they are good neighbors isn’t working, so they are now in underground bunkers doing their training?

They have been caught in their schools and mosques with hate literature. Some were told to get rid of it and we found it later being taught after they xeroxed the original texts that they did indeed toss out? or caught ‘red handed’ so to speak preaching hatred and then turning around and saying ‘we misunderstand’.

Or the MSA with direct ties to the muslim brotherhood in our schools are now showing their true faces/agenda with their anti-semitism on campuses so much so that they have even attacked Jews on campus.

The masses of muslims who have told us they are peaceful, shouting anti-Jewish nasties during the Israeli/Gaza war. Waving hamas flags, and not caring that the muslims killed muslims and faked statistics, and who (hamas) are STILL lobbing bombs into Israel THE DAY AFTER they signed a cease fire. but all is well now - the muslims are not whining about it anymore, right?! Or the hundreds of thousands that die in the Sudan. Or how about the thousands of bombs that have gone off in the Philippines, or the renewed jihad in India, … the list goes on.

How about the community of somalies our government know are illegal who are coming and going to their jihad? yeah, in (I think it was either Michigan or Minnesota) there is a bunch of them there that are being watched. Or the muslims getting my tax dollars for their schools. Excuse me, but our tax dollars do not go for Catholic, or any other religion’s, schools - what makes muslims special?

Or their fairy tales in our history books? That garbage is early brainwashing. Of course the thing is we don’t want to OOFFFEND muslims - well, no one cares about offending Catholics, Christians, or Jews!

Sorry, but you are wrong. I am a concerned citizen and tired of their propaganda spreading as they try to spread it on these threads. They can’t even tell the truth about their own religion, prophet and allah.

 

[R_not]

So, what? While you amuse yourself with your Irish/English problems there are some real problems we are facing here in the States. Actually, so is the UK facing these real problems.

I am ‘tarring’ islam. And I do not make distinctions between ‘peaceful’ or ‘radical’ because muslims do not. That is just a left winger’s label, just as islamophobe, islamofascist, etc are left winger’s labels.

I am also ‘tarring’ them in regards that we need to be aware of what they are trying to do in our schools, in our government. I suppose this is the difference between us - and I am ok with that. You can just sit back, behave as if you are judge and jury over me, I will continue to work to make sure that people are aware of what islam is all about. It is about dominance (them) vs subjugation (us). It is about twisting words so as to make their jihad (wars) sound like opening the world to islam, to stop oppression (to make us persecuted/subjugated). And those ‘mainstream’, or ‘peaceful’, or ‘moderate’ ones are just as much about making islam dominant as are the violenct ‘radicals’. They just have different strategies. Read the koran, learn their strategies.

Your words are just words to try to elevate yourself as some sort of all knowing one. I have read your posts even against planten. Nothing of substance, but one of mocking and ridicule. Instead of taking his note and trying to teach - maybe teach other newbees to the forums - instead you mock others. That is what you are about, sir.

I have to admit that sometimes planten is frustrating, but don’t elevate yourself into something while demeaning others - because that is all I read about in your posts too often.

 

[imasinner]

Maybe she is sinning according to her faith, but she is still muslim.

To take an extreme example, no one can claim bin laden is a non muslim or not practicing, inspite of his actions.

I do. I am not a supporter of zionism. Thankfully it is not religiously mandated for jews.

In the same way, I reject political islam. I have nothing against muslims or religious islam.

I believe it is a valid and moral way of life and I admire its adherents.

I too would still be muslim, if it did not advocate so strongly the imposition of a political agenda.

So but for the polical agenda you would still consider Mohammad a true prophet? Why exactly are you taking RCIA classes may I ask?

 

[R_not]

I think it is because they are not really told, or fully realize, the violent nature of mohammed.

Keep in mind that for a muslim to turn away from islam is a big deal. A very, big deal. They are taking a huge step away from, in many cases, family and friends. They are too often killed (depends on where they live - and even muslims in our country are killed for leaving), and at the very least they are on their own. In muslim countries, at the very least, they could be exiled.

Just leaving islam also doesn’t mean they realize that mohammed was such a violent guy unless they do some research for themselves. When I say ‘violent guy’ I am also including the other despicable things he did too. It just is not viewed in the same way we view these things.

I see/read a lot of problems with the koran and hadiths, but that doesn’t mean that one who leaves is leaving for that reason. Hopefully, they continue to read and figure it out for themselves - the other theological problems with islam.

In Christ, they are loved and saved just because they are one in Christ. They don’t have to worry about all that scales of bad and good stuff, or worrying about going to worship a rock, or wonder if they were predestined for heaven or hell. Or worry if they have said enough PBUH, or did enough good deeds, or whatever else they believe will get them to heaven.

 

[R_not]

Here is more on the compounds I brought up in a previous post. The first time I heard about this was on the DVD, The Third Jihad. Thereafter I listened to a Fox news special on it, Homegrown Terror. Then there was an article saying they are now going underground with their activities. They have dug bunkers. (this one has a map of the violent incidences that have happened involving this group and how this coordinates with where the compounds are located.

Nuetering the Constitution (the Gates of Vienna)

"After analyzing the data on the locations of the Muslims of America compounds in seemingly remote locations it is increasingly obvious (to me) that they are locating close to certain places for the purpose of performing routine surveillance and launching attacks on even more ambitious targets, with the goal of designing an coordinated attack to culminate a major disaster!

Among these locations were the route lines and control stations for the states’ communications, petroleum, gas, electric and
hydroelectric systems.

While appearing to be offering help to hurricane and victims of natural disasters, they have analyzed FEMA, National Guard Armories, U.S. military installations, police stations, communications control sites, and airports’ response to disasters.This has allowed their civil engineers (which most of them are and some already in government jobs with knowledge of local infrastructure) to design plans and coordinate a nationwide attack while countering our response to these attacks. These plans of attack and surveillance methods are
textbook operations that can be found in our own military training manuals like the Department of Army FM 31-21 Covert Guerrilla Warfare and Special Forces Operations.

This manual gives detail on exactly how to use a relatively small well-trained covert group to bring down an established government. One would think they would recognize their own methods being used on themselves. I know we trained them with these methods for the bringing down the Russians in Afghanistan. I hope we can wake up America before it is too late — if that time has not already passed!"

 

[R_not]

Talk about generalizations. Most are news sites, faithfreedom.org, or run by a Christian - Mr. Spencer, and Brigette Gabrielle and Walid Shoebat and then I go to the original articles where they get them.

While who do you listen to? BBC? I will post about that news source in the next post. I have to gather my latest from that source which is biased to the 'n’th degree.

 

[tomarin]

I don’t really trust Wikipedia for a lot of things. And especially on this subject because we still find in too many muslim countries people who believe that the earth is flat. But even so - most accomplishments are centuries old, as I initially stated. And what did they do with all these discoveries? Not much. It would be like discovering the wheel. If someone didn’t discover that it would take at least one more to help balance out a carryall in the middle, or 3 more for a wagon, then the wheel is just about useless.

I guess I have a higher opinion of Wikipedia than the other posters here. In any event, my response to you and to Sir Winston is the same: yes, you’re right the heartland of Islam is a cultural backwater and will remain so for the foreseeable future. But just because it is now doesn’t mean that it always was. 700 years ago that wasn’t the case. They were the best when we were the rest.

It’s a basic fact of world history so it’s pretty easy to verify if you’re interested.

As for what they “did” with the knowledge, I presume they used it to better their own lives and eventually passed some of it to Western scholars, helping them to expand their understanding of the natural world. They also preserved many texts of the ancient world which would later allow Western scholars to “rediscover” our classical heritage.

 

[R_not]

BBC accused of being biased. Then they turn around and accuse them of being biased. Of course, the BBC just calls the other the name with no proof while there is proof that the BBC is biased.

here is last year’s report

And here is the report showing quite a number of proofs that the BBC is biased, and not reporting accurately.

Comparison With Conflict in Sri Lanka

It is extremely appropriate to highlight the BBC’s coverage of the Middle East considering the importance that the BBC attaches to the region. During the conflict, the BBC published, on average, 4.5 articles every day dealing with the fighting. In contrast, BBC coverage of the Sri Lankan government’s campaign against the Tamil Tigers group – a conflict that resulted in an estimated 2,000 civilian deaths in January of 2009 – produced barely one article a day.

According to human rights organizations, the conflict in Sri Lanka includes intentional attacks by both sides on civilians, attacks on hospitals (twenty attacks from December through February alone), and the use of human shields. Yet the BBC gives this conflict, estimated to have resulted in hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths, less than one quarter the average daily coverage of the Gaza conflict. If the BBC is going to focus this much on Gaza, it must expect scrutiny of that coverage.

 

[sedonaman]

I think this thread has gotten way OT.

 

[tomarin]

I am not convinced that Islam is a “faith” … much less an Abrahamic faith. In fact, I don’t think it is a religion at all:

Two things before we go further: 1- how do you define “religion” and 2- what’s your evidence for this claim (that Islam is not one)?

 

[R_not]

Oh well, no more arguing with Jhareck. I promise.

I would like to bring up the duty of muslims to wage jihad. It is in their sharia laws to wage it - it is their ‘duty’.

jihad is a muslim’s duty

In Khadduri’s book on Islamic law he writes:

Jihad: A tenet of Islamic law to adherents, with the reward of eternal life in Paradise, if they promote and exhort the word of Muhammad and the Koran to others, and not necessarily excluding the use of violence.

“The Jihad may be regarded as a form of religious propaganda that can be carried on by persuasion or by sword.”

And on the radio this morning was Nonie Darwish, and I quote her:

Nonie Darwish was on the radio this morning. She is talking about her new book, Crime and Usual Punishment. She is talking about her experiences in Egypt as a child (born and raised in Cairo, Egypt) and her father was a martyr. She says jihad is a ‘law’ and it is a duty to perform against non-muslim states.

And she is bringing up the fact that our left wing idiots don’t give a rip about the plight of women in islam. (my comment: I find it ironic that the muslim women here in the West don’t give a rip about them!)

She is trying to warn us about islam and sharia law. She is saying that in parts of the UK, Canada and in France there is sharia law. She is trying to warn people about sharia law. She even says that the muslims themselves are saying that they ‘will impose sharia on non-Christians too’. We are not listening to what the muslims are saying and just listening to what we want to hear, or putting on rose colored glasses with thoughts of political correctness and multiculturalism in our minds. Their idea of multiculturalism and political correctness is sharia law and the subjugation of the unbeliever!

She is trying to tell us that there is no compromise with them. It is why they make cease fires and always break them. The cease fire for them is not for us, but for them to regroup. The goal is to keep on until they have established sharia law over the world.

Being a muslim is not only a relationship with their god, but a relationship with the muslim state.

 

[tomarin]

I think this thread has gotten way OT.

What was the topic again?