A brief history of political islam

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Historically, Catholic Christianity certainly did. Today the position is more nuanced and may be read in a number of different ways, but remains much more favorable for non-Catholic Christians than members of other faiths.

Fair enough. I dont have much knowledge of the historical teachings of the RCC.

But the RCIA class I go to now, taught me that salvation is uncertain outside the Church; not impossible.

 

[tomarin]

But the RCIA class I go to now, taught me that salvation is uncertain outside the Church; not impossible.

That sounds like an accurate statement of the current formulation.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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Again I am not hostile to muslims. I am married to a muslim woman.

A Muslim woman is not allowed to marry a non-Muslim . So , may be she is a born Muslimah but sorry to say not a practicing one.

I have a huge problem with political islam.

Don’t u have any problem with the history of Jews ? How once victims of holocausts are creating another holocaust —don’t u feel disturbed about that ?

 

[algebra]

A Muslim woman is not allowed to marry a non-Muslim . So , may be she is a born Muslimah but sorry to say not a practicing one.

Maybe she is sinning according to her faith, but she is still muslim.

To take an extreme example, no one can claim bin laden is a non muslim or not practicing, inspite of his actions.

Don’t u have any problem with the history of Jews ? How once victims of holocausts are creating another holocaust —don’t u feel disturbed about that ?

I do. I am not a supporter of zionism. Thankfully it is not religiously mandated for jews.

In the same way, I reject political islam. I have nothing against muslims or religious islam.

I believe it is a valid and moral way of life and I admire its adherents.

I too would still be muslim, if it did not advocate so strongly the imposition of a political agenda.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I believe it is a valid and moral way of life and I admire its adherents.

I too would still be muslim, if it did not advocate so strongly the imposition of a political agenda.

I must ask you then what you find moral about it’s teachings? Can you tell me the charitable tenets of the faith toward non-Moslems? What is valid or moral about Mohammed whom all devout Moslems hold in the highest esteem?

 

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I must ask you then what you find moral about it’s teachings?

Respect for elders/parents
Just dealings (economic & otherwise) with all individuals
Respect for other faiths/treatment of their places of worship

Respectful/ appropriate dealings with members of the opposite sex.

Can you tell me the charitable tenets of the faith toward non-Moslems?

Zakat is to be used for the benefit of all the poor (muslim and non-muslim).
If you were to go hungry to a masjid, and there is a meal being served there, no one will ask you if you are muslim.

You will be invited in, you will be given water to wash with, and you will be provided with the same meal that every muslim there is receiving.

This happens at least 40 times a year.

What is valid or moral about Mohammed whom all devout Moslems hold in the highest esteem?

For his century and geographical location he was remarkably enlightened.

However that is not true today.

I do not consider him a prophet (in the sense that God spoke to him in anyway)
I do consider him a prophet in that he taught about the One God, mentioned in the Tanakh, as he understood the teachings in the Tanakh.

He brought enlighenment/knowledge of the one God to many in this world.

This could only happen if it were God’s plan.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Respect for elders/parents

Mohammed demolished the familial and tribal ties in his time making religion the binding factor untill the whole of Arabia was under his/Islam control. There are many hadith that support this.

Just dealings (economic & otherwise) with all individuals

Jizya and things like the Pact of Umar indicate that is not accurate.

Respect for other faiths/treatment of their places of worship

Mohammed gave some deference to 'The People of the Book" but no others. Even that qualified distinction for Jews and Chrsitians never ment equality.

Respectful/ appropriate dealings with members of the opposite sex.

Only if they were Moslem. Throughout the Quran and hadith being a ‘believer’ for such respect is warranted.

Zakat is to be used for the benefit of all the poor (muslim and non-muslim).

Throughout the Quran and hadith being a ‘believer’ for such benefits is required and understood as the many verses and stories clearly show non-believers are to be given no help.

If you were to go hungry to a masjid, and there is a meal being served there, no one will ask you if you are muslim.

You will be invited in, you will be given water to wash with, and you will be provided with the same meal that every muslim there is receiving.

I think that may be true for a few reasons such as the masjid in Islamic nations then or now are populated by 99% Moslems so it is assumed they are Moslem, but if I were to wear a crucifix I doubt I would receive such a welcome.

For his century and geographical location he was remarkably enlightened.

However that is not true today.

I do not see any of his actions as enlightened even in the 7th century sense particularly after the veil verse, marrying his adopted sons wife, marrying a child or assassinating people for mocking him. Can you give an example?

I do not consider him a prophet (in the sense that God spoke to him in anyway)
I do consider him a prophet in that he taught about the One God, mentioned in the Tanakh, as he understood the teachings in the Tanakh.

He brought enlighenment/knowledge of the one God to many in this world.

Monotheism was not unknown to Arabia but his deep misunderstanding of both Jewish and Christian faiths have done more harm than any good.

This could only happen if it were God’s plan.

I disagree.

 

[algebra]

Mohammed demolished the familial and tribal ties in his time making religion the binding factor untill the whole of Arabia was under his/Islam control. There are many hadith that support this.

However muslims are encouraged to respect their elders and parents.
He did not abolish tribal ties in the least (arabs will still refer to their tribal lineage - particularly if they come from a regal line), and elevated members of his tribe (the quraysh) in some of his ahadith (these are currently used by shi’a to justify their understanding of imamat.

You are wrong.

Jizya and things like the Pact of Umar indicate that is not accurate.

What does justice have to do with a miilitary agreement?

Mohammed gave some deference to 'The People of the Book" but no others. Even that qualified distinction for Jews and Chrsitians never ment equality.

More equality than the christians gave jews and muslims…people that live in glass houses…

Only if they were Moslem. Throughout the Quran and hadith being a ‘believer’ for such respect is warranted.

I can see that you do not know any muslim men. You are wrong again.

Throughout the Quran and hadith being a ‘believer’ for such benefits is required and understood as the many verses and stories clearly show non-believers are to be given no help.

Show me one of these verses or ahadith, just one.

I think that may be true for a few reasons such as the masjid in Islamic nations then or now are populated by 99% Moslems so it is assumed they are Moslem, but if I were to wear a crucifix I doubt I would receive such a welcome.

As true for a north american masjid as any other, with or without you wearing a crucifix.

I do not see any of his actions as enlightened even in the 7th century sense particularly after the veil verse, marrying his adopted sons wife, marrying a child or assassinating people for mocking him. Can you give an example?

His treatment of women, giving property rights to women. Curtailing infanticide. Speaking out against slavery.

Monotheism was not unknown to Arabia but his deep misunderstanding of both Jewish and Christian faiths have done more harm than any good.

Perhaps

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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The Jews became permanent dhimmis throughout Islam.

Islam Denounces Terrorism

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In 1492, the Jews who refused to convert were exiled from Spain by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella (above). The Jews were accepted by the Ottoman Empire, a haven of Islamic justice and tolerance.

Thomas Arnold, a British missionary employed in the service of the Indian government, describes that Islam favours freedom in these words:

But of any organised attempt to force the acceptance of Islam on the non-Muslim population, or of any systematic persecution intended to stamp out the Christian religion, we hear nothing.

Had the caliphs chosen to adopt either course of action, they might have swept away Christianity as easily as Ferdinand and Isabella drove Islam out of Spain, or Louis XIV made Protestantism penal in France, or the Jews were kept out of England for 350 years.

harunyahya.com/terrorism2.php

useful links:Exposing Myths on Islam

Educating the Sincere Jews

Was Islam Spread by the Sword?

 

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Had the caliphs chosen to adopt either course of action, they might have swept away Christianity as easily as Ferdinand and Isabella drove Islam out of Spain,

That is a stupid argument.

What was islam doing in spain in the first place? How did it get there?

Was it an invasion? Of course it was.

 

[cthulhubryan]

“Moslems are the first victims of Islam. Many times I have observed in my travels in the Orient, that fanaticism comes from a small number of dangerous men who maintain the others in the practice of religion by terror. To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service one can render him” - Earnest Renan 1883.

“Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided that they are not disabled and incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of other countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country of the world.
But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer to whole world… Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them [non Muslims] put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]. Does this mean sitting back until they [non Muslims] overcome us? Islam says: Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill you! Does this mean we should surrender to the enemy? Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can only be opened for Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Koranic] psalms and Hadiths urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.” - Ayatollah Khomeini

How, in the face of the words of the dark one himself, do you claim that Islam is not violent?

 

[tomarin]

Don’t u have any problem with the history of Jews ? How once victims of holocausts are creating another holocaust —don’t u feel disturbed about that ?

That analogy is such an over-the-top distortion of the history of both Jews and Palestinians that it undermines your credibility, Muslim Woman. It’s inflammatory rhetoric and has no place in a friendly conversation among reasonable people.

 

[pismopal]

Again I am not hostile to muslims. I am married to a muslim woman.
I just dont agree with political islam. If islam was to give up on its political aspirations, I would have no problem with it, whatsoever.

Let me state this clearly

I have no problem with muslims, or even religious islam

I have a huge problem with political islam.

It is not possible to separate political from religious islam…they are inseparable…essentially the same. The Koran rules every aspect of muslim life and death and leaves no tolerance for other faiths. I have been blessed with the freedom to post without muslim responses but if one were to repond they would quote some line about the freedom to adhere to any religion without interference. Only someone without modern news sources would buy into that lie.

 

[tomarin]

It is not possible to separate political from religious islam…they are inseparable…essentially the same.

I think that’s an oversimplification. People in the Islamic world feel a great deal of loyalty to the concept of Islam as a community of like-minded people regardless of their degree of personal piety. Note that the 9/11 hijackers drank alcohol and frequented bars during the time they spent in Florida learning to fly jets. They were not pious Muslims yet they committed a heinous act of political fanaticism in the name of Islam.

 

[algebra]

That is very true Tomarin.

Initially I would observe muslims like that and think they were a hypocritical bunch.

Later I realised that there are actually 2 islams and a person may not be pious but still be very loyal to political islam or the ummah.

 

[pismopal]

I think that’s an oversimplification. People in the Islamic world feel a great deal of loyalty to the concept of Islam as a community of like-minded people regardless of their degree of personal piety. Note that the 9/11 hijackers drank alcohol and frequented bars during the time they spent in Florida learning to fly jets. They were not pious Muslims yet they committed a heinous act of political fanaticism in the name of Islam.

If you can categorize the acts of the 9/11 fanatics as political I think you should offer just a little evidence for that. Islamic religious leaders call for just such acts and offer sexual rewards and paradise as a reward. What is political about it? They offered only religious reasons for their acts so I’m puzzled where you get your opinion. Many Christians commit sins as defined by their religion but that doesn’t make them non believers.

 

[Verisimilitude]

However muslims are encouraged to respect their elders and parents.

This is more a function of human nature which I ascribe to the image in which all humans are created in relation to our Creator as much if not more a religious tenet. Even the aboriginal who knows nothing of God as we might think respect elders and parents.

He did not abolish tribal ties in the least (arabs will still refer to their tribal lineage - particularly if they come from a regal line), and elevated members of his tribe (the quraysh) in some of his ahadith (these are currently used by shi’a to justify their understanding of imamat.

You are wrong.

I don’t think so and would be happy to give examples when I am near my reference materials which are at home. When Mohammed fled to Medina he had broken up many families and tribes and there was great distress among the people because for much of that period before he unified Arabia under Islam before his death he cared little for such things. Blood fueds and other traditional Arab customs were changed in that tim ethough once all were Moslem it may have reverted back to what seemed normal to them.

What does justice have to do with a miilitary agreement?

To your own point of political Islam and neither could hardly be called just.

More equality than the christians gave jews and muslims…people that live in glass houses…

Today it would be called apartheid and bigotry and Christianity or Jews do not have scripture supporting such acts though they may commit it. Big difference but again goes to your OP.

I can see that you do not know any muslim men. You are wrong again.

I do know Moslem men, but most that I know are not practicing. Regardless those here in the west are bound by western laws and western civil society norms; not eastern Moslem dominated nations. A recent story of a Moslem man who beheaded his wife for wanting a divorce, or those that kill their sisters and daughters from some Islamic transgression of honor, or the 75 year old woman in Arabia getting 75 lashes for meeting men not her realative…

Show me one of these verses or ahadith, just one.

I will show you three:
Quran- Those who believe, and adopt exile, and fight for the Faith, in the cause of Allah as well as those who give (them) asylum and aid,- these are (all) in very truth the Believers: for them is the forgiveness of sins and a provision most generous.
( سورة الأنفال , Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #74)
Hadith- Narrated Abu Juhaifa: I asked 'Ali “Do you have anything Divine literature besides what is in the Qur’an?” Or, as Uyaina once said, “Apart from what the people have?” 'Ali said, “By Him Who made the grain split (germinate) and created the soul, we have nothing except what is in the Quran and the ability (gift) of understanding Allah’s Book which He may endow a man, with and what is written in this sheet of paper.” I asked, “What is on this paper?” He replied, “The legal regulations of Diya (Blood-money) and the (ransom for) releasing of the captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for killing a Kafir (disbeliever).” (Book #83, Hadith #50)~Bukhari
Mohammeds last sermon-O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust.

Can you show me something other than the ‘no compulsion in religion’ verse where any charity or help is to be given to a non-Moslem?

As true for a north american masjid as any other, with or without you wearing a crucifix.

I have my doubts.

His treatment of women, giving property rights to women. Curtailing infanticide. Speaking out against slavery.

Non-believeing women were little more than cattle and believing women little more than that; not even close to equal rights (and I think it was mostly becasue of the many widows that no one could take care of but I get the point of that since other cultures to include Christian cultures didn’t for a long while), …he not only practiced slavery it is still practiced because he did.

 

[tomarin]

If you can categorize the acts of the 9/11 fanatics as political I think you should offer just a little evidence for that. Islamic religious leaders call for just such acts and offer sexual rewards and paradise as a reward. What is political about it? They offered only religious reasons for their acts so I’m puzzled where you get your opinion. Many Christians commit sins as defined by their religion but that doesn’t make them non believers.

They did what they did on behalf of Al Qaeda; Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization, and terrorist organizations do what they do to further political goals. What defines them as terrorist is the methods they use.

 

[tomarin]

This is more a function of human nature which I ascribe to the image in which all humans are created in relation to our Creator as much if not more a religious tenet. Even the aboriginal who knows nothing of God as we might think respect elders and parents.

So if something good comes out of Islam it must be due to some other influence (here human nature), but if something bad is associated with Islam you seem eager to pin the blame on Islam. This is the textbook definition of a bias, isn’t it?

 

[tomarin]

If you can categorize the acts of the 9/11 fanatics as political I think you should offer just a little evidence for that. Islamic religious leaders call for just such acts and offer sexual rewards and paradise as a reward. What is political about it? They offered only religious reasons for their acts so I’m puzzled where you get your opinion. Many Christians commit sins as defined by their religion but that doesn’t make them non believers.

I don’t want to put it quite as baldly as saying that Osama bin Laden and others like him are political leaders in religious garb, but I think that’s closer to the truth than ascribing everything they do and say to religion. I think radical islam is a political movement to clean up and unify the muslim world on the basis of a shared religious identity.

As you say yourself, the boundary between religion and politics is more fluid and porous in the muslim world than in the West. Nevertheless I think the decisions that the leaders of this movement take are very shrewd and calculated and it would be a grave mistake to assume that they are motivated solely by otherworldly concerns. I pointed out the impiety of the 9/11 hijackers to present as evidence that they were the kind of people who wanted to die for the cause of pan-muslim unity and defiance against the west, rather than the type who took Islam seriously as a way of life.