A brief history of political islam

[Verisimilitude]

So if something good comes out of Islam it must be due to some other influence (here human nature), but if something bad is associated with Islam you seem eager to pin the blame on Islam. This is the textbook definition of a bias, isn’t it?

Are you suggesting it isn’t biased to conclude the religion is the reason respect be given to parents and elders?

Moslems are human beings and as such they share many qualities not attributed to religion. Where the Quran agrees with the Bible it is nothing new or unique since the Bible was in existence 2000+ years (OT) and 600 yrs (NT) before the Quran was developed. Where it disagrees it can and should be rejected so the whole thing can and should be rejected as nothing new, unique or legitimate can be gleened. I have read it three (3) times now and each time I read it I learn more from it (as I do the Bible); the difference being is what I learn only confirms its illigitimacy.

algebra gave those qualities as moral teachings from Islam becasue I asked what moral elements are in Islam that he sees. Mormons teach the same as do Atheists, Humanists and Catholics. If asked what moral teachings I see in Catholicism I don’t think I would use respect for parents and elders as an example since I view them as a universal or near instinct ethos.

I could list Matthew 5:42 as an example and to my larger point if someone were to suggest the same moral is taught in Islam I would say it is conditional to ‘believers’ only and not a universal ethic as taught by Church- regardless of religion or any other qualifier.

I am saying Islam almost always qualifies its charity and compassion (religious ethic) according to its scripture and hadiths (political ethics) to believers only. I gave examples to support my thought in that. If you have examples otherwise please offer them.

 

[pismopal]

So if something good comes out of Islam it must be due to some other influence (here human nature), but if something bad is associated with Islam you seem eager to pin the blame on Islam. This is the textbook definition of a bias, isn’t it?

I can save you some trouble if you are trying to accuse me of bias against islam. I am biased and I am in wonderful company including Winston Churchhill. May I quote you?.. " If something bad is associated with islam." I will let the readers decide what is wrong with your understatement. There is so much evidence of what is wrong with islam that I think the ball is in your court to make a case that islam is getting a bad rap.

 

[R_not]

I think that’s an oversimplification. People in the Islamic world feel a great deal of loyalty to the concept of Islam as a community of like-minded people regardless of their degree of personal piety. Note that the 9/11 hijackers drank alcohol and frequented bars during the time they spent in Florida learning to fly jets. They were not pious Muslims yet they committed a heinous act of political fanaticism in the name of Islam.

That is because in their sick minds they knew if they became martyrs (shahid) they would enter heaven no matter what sins they committed.

And this is where islam is not consistent… does killing oneself while killing unbelievers bypass predestination in islam? no muslim has dared to answer this, just like they flee when I ask them to prove the Bible was corrupted and to not use a guy who was a pagan who couldn’t read and write as their source.

 

[tomarin]

I can save you some trouble if you are trying to accuse me of bias against islam.

My comments about bias were directed at Verisimilitude only, in response to something very specific he said. I’m not interested in blindly accusing people of bias or of raising the rhetorical temperature here, just separating sound reasoning from unsound. Good luck and god bless.

 

[Verisimilitude]

My comments about bias were directed at Verisimilitude only, in response to something very specific he said. I’m not interested in blindly accusing people of bias or of raising the rhetorical temperature here, just separating sound reasoning from unsound. Good luck and god bless.

Is my reasoning sound or unsound?

 

[tomarin]

Are you suggesting it isn’t biased to conclude the religion is the reason respect be given to parents and elders?

That’s a tu quoque argument, therefore irrelevant because we were talking about you.

Moslems are human beings and as such they share many qualities not attributed to religion.

The question is, who are you to decide what positive qualities associated with Islam are due to religion and which to human nature. If the religion teaches respect for elders, then I think that is reasonable to ascribe that attribute to the teachings of the religion. I do the same for Christianity. I suspect you do the same for Christianity but not for Islam because you cannot bear the thought of Islam having positive characteristics.

A muslim apologist motivated by a hatred of Christianity could do the same thing you’re doing, i.e. selectively cite “bad” characteristics and dismiss the good ones on the grounds of human nature or some other factor (maybe the Christians came into contact with enlightened Islam and adopted some of their virtue?). But his argument would be just as logically inconsistent and therefore just as invalid.

 

[tomarin]

Moslems are human beings and as such they share many qualities not attributed to religion. Where the Quran agrees with the Bible it is nothing new or unique since the Bible was in existence 2000+ years (OT) and 600 yrs (NT) before the Quran was developed. Where it disagrees it can and should be rejected so the whole thing can and should be rejected as nothing new, unique or legitimate can be gleened. I have read it three (3) times now and each time I read it I learn more from it (as I do the Bible); the difference being is what I learn only confirms its illigitimacy.

Well I kind of agree with you here because I believe Christianity is the fullest expression of God’s intentions toward us. But that doesn’t mean that there can’t be glimmers of truth in other religions, especially the other Abrahamic ones, which is what I learned from the Catholic catechism. If that’s so then the only fair thing to do is to acknowledge the good things about Islam, to give credit where credit is due as it were, not to redefine those things as coming from somewhere else.

algebra gave those qualities as moral teachings from Islam becasue I asked what moral elements are in Islam that he sees. Mormons teach the same as do Atheists, Humanists and Catholics. If asked what moral teachings I see in Catholicism I don’t think I would use respect for parents and elders as an example since I view them as a universal or near instinct ethos.

Again, if the religion teaches it, it’s not fair to say that it comes from somewhere else (especially if your going to make the argument that other teachings are false or baneful.)

I am saying Islam almost always qualifies its charity and compassion (religious ethic) according to its scripture and hadiths (political ethics) to believers only. I gave examples to support my thought in that. If you have examples otherwise please offer them.

Perhaps you’re right, but I think most religions have this tendency. After all, one of the things that makes following a religion attractive to us is that we want to belong to a group, along with the concomitant desire to put down other groups in opposition to our group.

 

[tomarin]

That is because in their sick minds they knew if they became martyrs (shahid) they would enter heaven no matter what sins they committed.

I think you’re confusing speculation with fact here.

 

[tomarin]

Is my reasoning sound or unsound?

I would say manifestly unsound, because you are willing to ascribe negative characteristics to a religion based on its teachings, but when presented with positive characteristics also based on its teachings, you dismiss them. That’s the fallacy of selection, and it betrays bias.

 

[tomarin]

I will let the readers decide what is wrong with your understatement. There is so much evidence of what is wrong with islam that I think the ball is in your court to make a case that islam is getting a bad rap.

Well I think it probably deserves a bad rap, but not without a fair hearing first.

By the way, isn’t it strange that you are proud of being biased? Harboring a bias effectively means that we others can’t trust what you say to be accurate or fair, because of your bias. Is that really something to be proud of?

 

[pismopal]

Well I think it probably deserves a bad rap, but not without a fair hearing first.

By the way, isn’t it strange that you are proud of being biased? Harboring a bias effectively means that we others can’t trust what you say to be accurate or fair, because of your bias. Is that really something to be proud of?

I made a statement of fact and I did not include pride in my statement of fact. When I admit to any feeling I have does that necessarilly include…pride? I am biased about certain things…certain things cause anger…sadness. You say God bless to me, add a happy face and then imply that I am strange because I admit bias and then add something I never said or inferred…pride. Yes…you have yourself a nice day too…

 

[pismopal]

tomarin

Just a thought…do you need some kind of fair hearing…formal…tribunal…judicial hearing before you can make up your mind whether something is good…bad…maybe a little of both? Are you biased about anything…anything at all? Hmmm…don’t worry that was a smart aleck rhetorical question.

 

[tomarin]

I made a statement of fact and I did not include pride in my statement of fact. When I admit to any feeling I have does that necessarilly include…pride? I am biased about certain things…certain things cause anger…sadness. You say God bless to me, add a happy face and then imply that I am strange because I admit bias and then add something I never said or inferred…pride. Yes…you have yourself a nice day too…

Well I detected a note of triumphalism because of what you said about Churchill and wonderful company. I interpreted it as meaning “you know what? I am biased but that’s a good thing in this context”. But if I read too much into your post, or misunderstood what you were saying, I apologize.

My smiley-faces are always sincere and heart-felt, however! God bless.

 

[tomarin]

tomarin

Just a thought…do you need some kind of fair hearing…formal…tribunal…judicial hearing before you can make up your mind whether something is good…bad…maybe a little of both? Are you biased about anything…anything at all? Hmmm…don’t worry that was a smart aleck rhetorical question.

No. But I think it’s important to be for something for sound reasons; likewise if you’re going to be against something you must also have sound reasons, or expect to be called on it.

We’re all biased, myself included. But that’s no excuse not to be on the lookout for the pitfalls that camoflage and subvert reason.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I would say manifestly unsound, because you are willing to ascribe negative characteristics to a religion based on its teachings, but when presented with positive characteristics also based on its teachings, you dismiss them. That’s the fallacy of selection, and it betrays bias.

Remember this question?

I gave examples to support my thought in that. If you have examples otherwise please offer them.

If you don’t offer Quran or hadith to support a unqualified ‘positive characteristic’ claim then you have nothing to offer.

Why in the world would anyone NOT ascribe negative characteristics to a religion based on its teachings if they are negative? Show me the positive of it that is unique to Islam. At a minimum show me an unqualified positive aspect other than respect for parents and elders, or is that all there is as you see it?

You also make a lot of negative assumptions about me besides not offering any rebuttal except your own conclusions without support. I could explain to you my initial study of Islam was because of the ‘common knowledge’ that Moslems and Jews and Christians worship the same God and was looking for that ‘glimmer of truth’ you think evident in Islam. This isn’t true. I’m sure you think it is, but it isn’t. Just because they say it is by invoking similar people and certain events and claiming monotheism means nothing. The simple fact there is only one God does not prove them true that god allah as the same. That would be like one group in Africa who has a rain god called X and another group in China has a rain god called Y must mean they are the same rain god because they both are rain gods. You accuse me of fallacy of selection and bias when you exhibit non-comprehension of reason and fact as it regards Islam.

You say I am ‘eager to pin the blame on Islam’ when in reality I am saddened by the reality of that illegitimate faith because the true author of parts of the Quran spoke a paradoxical truth in it:
He said: “Seest Thou? this is the one whom Thou hast honoured above me! If Thou wilt but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway - all but a few!”
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #62)

I’ll assume you know who is quoted there.

I have no animosity toward Moslems as a people or a person. I do not hate them or fear them, but I don’t make excuses for their faith as you do for reasons I can understand though it is misguided because your support undermines our own. Sad fact is there is no truth in Islam. This does not lessen a Moslems humanity but their humanity does not legitimize that faith.

 

[tomarin]

Remember this question?

If you don’t offer Quran or hadith to support a unqualified ‘positive characteristic’ claim then you have nothing to offer.

Well I don’t have a Quran handy at the moment but let’s look at the five pillars of Islam in the meantime. They are about believing in God’s oneness (correct, good) and the prophet Muhammad as the last prophet (error); establishment of daily prayers (good); concern for and almsgiving to the needy (good); self-purification through fasting (good); the pilgrimage to Mecca for those who are able (good because it encourages piety). That’s 4.5 out of 5, not bad at all. It looks like you overstated your case.

Why in the world would anyone NOT ascribe negative characteristics to a religion based on its teachings if they are negative?

Obviously because they are not all negative, as I showed above.

Show me the positive of it that is unique to Islam. At a minimum show me an unqualified positive aspect other than respect for parents and elders, or is that all there is as you see it?

See above.

You also make a lot of negative assumptions about me besides not offering any rebuttal except your own conclusions without support.

I’m offering flaws that I perceive in your logic, based on what you’ve written here. I have no personal animus against you. I wouldn’t mind buying you a beer in fact (once Lent is over).

I could explain to you my initial study of Islam was because of the ‘common knowledge’ that Moslems and Jews and Christians worship the same God and was looking for that ‘glimmer of truth’ you think evident in Islam. This isn’t true. I’m sure you think it is, but it isn’t. Just because they say it is by invoking similar people and certain events and claiming monotheism means nothing. The simple fact there is only one God does not prove them true that god allah as the same.

It just proves that they are monotheists, like we are. That is a truth of their religion that also happens to be true. If it isn’t, then Christianity is false. That’s the absurdity of arguing as you now are, that everything Islam teaches is false. It disproves Christianity.

That would be like one group in Africa who has a rain god called X and another group in China has a rain god called Y must mean they are the same rain god because they both are rain gods. You accuse me of fallacy of selection and bias when you exhibit non-comprehension of reason and fact as it regards Islam.

They might be different gods as you say but if so they have a suspicious number of qualities in common: omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. They certainly seem very similar. (Not that I’m saying that Christianity and Islam are the same, not by a long shot.)

I have no animosity toward Moslems as a people or a person. I do not hate them or fear them, but I don’t make excuses for their faith as you do for reasons I can understand though it is misguided because your support undermines our own.

It wouldn’t bother me if you hated Muslims if you offered good reasons for doing so (If you were an Egyptian Copt, for example, I would understand why you hated Muslims and wouldn’t begrudge you for feeling that way). But so far you haven’t exhibited sound arguments to back up the contentions you make about the religion.

Sad fact is there is no truth in Islam. This does not lessen a Moslems humanity but their humanity does not legitimize that faith.

See above (re disproving Christianity).

 

[Verisimilitude]

Well I don’t have a Quran handy at the moment but let’s look at the five pillars of Islam in the meantime.

When you get near it I’d still like to see some unqualified ‘good’ if you can offer it.

They are about believing in God’s oneness (correct, good)

No, as their misunderstanding about the Trinity profits them no understanding of God’s magnitude and truth.

and the prophet Muhammad as the last prophet (error);

Actually they place Mohammed along side god allah as inseperable- in the same breath and sentence. Lowering Christ to a mere human while elevating Mohammed to a godhead.

establishment of daily prayers (good);

Repetitious mimicing of Mohammeds actions 14 centuries ago 5 times a day is not as noble as some may think. The Lord’s Prayer as well as other Gospel accounts regarding prayer indicate it is not so good.

concern for and almsgiving to the needy (good);

This is qualified to Moslems only as I have shown earlier. Please show by Quranic scripture or hadith to show otherwise. If you can’t show it is unqualified explain to me how it is still good.

self-purification through fasting (good);

Define the ‘purified’ Moslem; one that accepts the jihad verses like those our governments call Islamic fundamentalist?

the pilgrimage to Mecca for those who are able (good because it encourages piety).

Undue hardship to people for an act thats only purpose is to imitate Mohammed and bring revenue to Arabia as was the case before Islam began.

That’s 4.5 out of 5, not bad at all. It looks like you overstated your case.

I see it as 0 for 5 unless you can prove some unqualified sura or hadith.

Obviously because they are not all negative, as I showed above.

0 for 5

See above.

0 for 5

I’m offering flaws that I perceive in your logic, based on what you’ve written here. I have no personal animus against you. I wouldn’t mind buying you a beer in fact (once Lent is over).

Hefeweizen or a Jim Beam and Ginger Ale would do.

It just proves that they are monotheists, like we are. That is a truth of their religion that also happens to be true. If it isn’t, then Christianity is false. That’s the absurdity of arguing as you now are, that everything Islam teaches is false. It disproves Christianity.

That statment seems to me like someone claiming to be a ‘pro-choice Catholic’.

They might be different gods as you say but if so they have a suspicious number of qualities in common: omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. They certainly seem very similar. (Not that I’m saying that Christianity and Islam are the same, not by a long shot.)

You are attempting to make a case that they are more similar than not. 0 for 5.

It wouldn’t bother me if you hated Muslims if you offered good reasons for doing so (If you were an Egyptian Copt, for example, I would understand why you hated Muslims and wouldn’t begrudge you for feeling that way). But so far you haven’t exhibited sound arguments to back up the contentions you make about the religion.

It should bother you if I hated Moslems because if I did I would not be fully embracing the tenets of the faith I claim. I would not argue as I do if I did not want to be a hypocrite. I find it difficult at times not to get angry or desire retribution but such thoughts make me change my behavior when I remember my faith.

See above (re disproving Christianity).

My logic is supported by example where yours has remained conjecture disproven by logic and evidence.

Drinks are on me.

 

[R_not]

I think you’re confusing speculation with fact here.

Whose ‘speculation’ and whose ‘facts’?

Maybe you should look into their martyrdom stuff a little more. Those nuts were martyrs (shahid) and they thought they would go straight to their orgy in heaven with their deed for allah. And the muslims knew this - this is why the celebration worldwide for them.

And their own families knew that they might be named as one of the 70 to be saved right along with them. Of course, this is in direct opposition to the concept of predestination in islam - but no muslim wants to talk about that.

Why do you think they do all those ‘PBUH’, or the hajj, or da’wa, etc? It is all to ‘cover their bases’ to so they get to heaven. They worship the black rock because they think it has a consciousness and will speak for them at Judgement Day.

I have posted several times the sources for all of these things. Look in my list of posts.

 

[tomarin]

My logic is supported by example where yours has remained conjecture disproven by logic and evidence.

Er, I’m not sure about that. I presented the 5 pillars of islam as proof.

Drinks are on me.

Okay. I’m partial to porter stout myself.

Re the rest of your post: it just sounds like you’re saying monotheism is good in christianity, but bad in islam; prayer is good in christianity but bad in islam, pilgrimage is good in christianity, but bad in islam; etc. That’s a double standard, and it’s a fallacy.

 

[tomarin]

Whose ‘speculation’ and whose ‘facts’?

Your speculation, R_not. You are speculating about things you cannot possibly know about (what was going on in the heads of the 9/11 hijackers) and then presenting it as fact.

I have posted several times the sources for all of these things. Look in my list of posts.

I know but with all due respect your sources are usually anti-islamic websites so they are not necessarily credible sources. I could post links to anti-catholic websites (not that I would do such a thing), it wouldn’t make them true.