A Buddhist critique of Catholic mysticism. Catholic rebuttal?

[Blue_Horizon]

These dont seem to be objective signs.

Levitation yes, but then Buddhist monks are said to have done so as well.
But as they see no significance in these things, other than a delusional curiosity(and a sign of Jhana level of medtiation), no great effort is made to advertise or record such things in detail.

 

[fhansen]

Well, I didn’t say that faith is evidence, only that a mystic’s experience is a type of proof for themselves, bolstering faith, even if not absolutely conclusive. They’re certainly more convincing for the receiver than the OP’s description of a Buddhist’s experience during meditation IMO however.

But faith considered as a gift is also a supernatural experience, and in that sense the very fact that I can believe things that I cannot prove is also a type of evidence for me personally.
"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." Heb 11:1 Some versions translate the word “assurance” here as “conviction” or “evidence”.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Turning back to the cited article, it is a bit disingenuous to blame the “god idea” for the maladies the author bemoans. Buddhist conceptions have facilitated similar poor results. If there is no me, and no you, then who am I hurting by my bad behavior? Neither of “us” exist. And, in fact, my killing you may help you by allowing a faster reincarnation to a higher state than you would have acheived after a longer life with additionally incurred bad karma. See the Zen community’s approval of atrocities committed by Japan justified under Buddhist principles for an example.

The real world educated Buddhists I associate with (as opposed to book or article learning) would be equally appalled by what you write above. That is not Buddhism.

a bit disingenuous to blame the “god idea” for the maladies the author bemoans.

I think there was some validity in his insight.

What maladies do you refer to?
All I saw was a gentle critique of persons who believe God can be known to exist with certainty on the basis of mystical experience

 

[Kei]

Bilocution, knowledge of the future, bringing the dead to life, multiplying food, having the stigmata, miracles seen by many, etc. Things all done “by” saints.
How are these not objective? It’s just denying evidence because you twist the worldview to deny evidence. What WOULD be evidence for such persons to accept?

 

[GLam1761]

Well thot out post, altho I agree that karma works
B/C it is a Biblical concept, you’ll “reap what you sow”
See 2 Cor. 9:6; Gal. 6:8

 

[Benadam]

The Budhist mystical experience can’t offer proof of what is happening . His interpretation of it is a matter of faith… I think if it boils down to faith in the interpretations of mystical experience… The differences are radical. I do think there is more reason to beleive the Christian interpretation because they all relate to the same revelation of God. He was using the term personal God but doesn’t include that Christian mystical experiences can happen spontaneously to people. Christian experience is one in which the receiver knows they didn’t make it happen. Evidence that it is a union with another person. That makes the interpretation more believable

 

[Tigre]

In the author’s words:

“God-belief, however, is placed in the same category as those morally destructive wrong views which deny the kammic results of action, assume a fortuitous origin of man and nature, or teach absolute determinism. These views are said to be altogether pernicious, having definite bad results due to their effect on ethical conduct.”

“We cannot, however, close our eyes to the fact that the God-concept has served too often as a cloak for man’s will to power, and the reckless and cruel use of that power, thus adding considerably to the ample measure of misery in this world supposed to be an all-loving God’s creation. For centuries free thought, free research and the expression of dissident views were obstructed and stifled in the name of service to God. And alas, these and other negative consequences are not yet entirely things of the past.”

I agree that real world Buddhists would be appalled at the twisting of Buddhist principles I cited to justify bad behavior. My point is that Buddhist principles can, and have been, twisted to do so in actual history. I agree that the examples provided are not “real” Buddhism.

The author’s examples are similar twists of the god idea that can, and have been also been done, to justify bad behavior. And the author’s examples are likewise not indicative of “real” deistic practice.

Bad ethical behavior is not caused by the god idea, and it not avoided by Buddhism. Both systems are corruptible, as it were, to justify bad conduct. That is all I meant by my post.

 

[Tigre]

I’m not saying karma is wrong. Rather, karma and its effect on negative or positive rebirth in Buddhism is not “provable” by meditation or otherwise. It is taken on faith.

 

[GLam1761]

I agree, I don’t believe in re-incarnation either,
it says in Heb. 9:27 that you only die once and
then the judgment.

 

[OneSheep]

Buddhism and the God-idea by Nyanaponika Thera

I confess to not having read much of the paper, but something seems rather un-Zen-like about the “rebirth” objective in the first couple pages. It has the sound of an attachment, but probably not. Not sure.

I also confess to sometimes having my own ego attached to “being right” when simply accepting the other’s point of view is more fruitful and is more in keeping with loving my neighbor. For example, look at this line from the paper:

If, however,
fanaticism induces him to persecute those who do not share his beliefs, this will have grave
consequences for his future destiny.

While I agree that fanaticism is harmful when it “induces”, fanaticism itself is sort of in the eye of the beholder. To me, it can be counterproductive to criticize when simple observation will suffice.

And to take another look at this line:

Although belief in God does not exclude a favourable rebirth, it is a variety of eternalism, a
false affirmation of permanence rooted in the craving for existence, and as such an obstacle to
final deliverance.

I am wondering if a focus on a “final deliverance” is in itself an obstacle to final deliverance, in Buddhist thought?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Likwise the immortality of spiritual rational souls.
Though, like karmic rebirth of the same time, the ancients did feel both were justified by the science of the day.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It would be poor Buddhist practice to judge the mystical experiences of another person, regardless of their faith.

Generally, Buddhist’s are taught not to go down this path and to only know the experience they are having.

Jim

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I am wondering if a focus on a “final deliverance” is in itself an obstacle to final deliverance, in Buddhist thought?

Likely as much and as little as over focussedly earning grace and doing good works is for a christian so as to get to “heaven”. Jesus had something to say about an elder brother in this regard.

 

[OneSheep]

Likely as much and as little as over focussedly earning grace and doing good works is for a christian so as to get to “heaven”. Jesus had something to say about an elder brother in this regard.

Couldn’t get past “over focussedly”. I think I’ve become attached to it.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Don’t over-emphasise the 2nd syllable!

 

[rossum]

Mystical experiences can be misleading; it is important to have an experienced guide to point out where they are deceptive:

People long for big thrills. Peak experiences. Some people come to Zen expecting that Enlightenment will be the Ultimate Peak Experience. The Mother of All Peak Experiences. But real enlightenment is the most ordinary of the ordinary. Once I had an amazing vision. I saw myself transported through time and space. Millions, no, billions, trillions, Godzillions of years passed. Not figuratively, but literally. Whizzed by. I found myself at the very rim of time and space, a vast giant being composed of the living minds and bodies of every thing that ever was. It was an incredibly moving experience. Exhilarating. I was high for weeks. Finally I told Nishijima Sensei about it . He said it was nonsense. Just my imagination. I can’t tell you how that made me feel. Imagination? This was as real an experience as any I’ve ever had. I just about cried. Later on that day I was eating a tangerine. I noticed how incredibly lovely a thing it was. So delicate. So amazingly orange. So very tasty. So I told Nishijima about that. That experience, he said, was enlightenment.

You need a teacher like that. The world needs lots more teachers like that. Countless teachers would have interpreted my experience as a merging of my Atman with God, as a portent of great and wonderful things, would have praised my spiritual growth and given me pointers on how to go even further. And I would have been suckered right in to that, let me tell you! Woulda fallen for it hook line and sinker, boy howdy. If a teacher doesn’t shatter your illusions he’s doing you no favors at all.

Source: Zen is boring

rossum

 

[fhansen]

deleted due to non-cooperative new posting format

 

[fhansen]

Mystical experiences can be misleading; it is important to have an experienced guide to point out where they are deceptive:

People long for big thrills. Peak experiences. Some people come to Zen expecting that Enlightenment will be the Ultimate Peak Experience. The Mother of All Peak Experiences. But real enlightenment is the most ordinary of the ordinary. Once I had an amazing vision. I saw myself transported through time and space. Millions, no, billions, trillions, Godzillions of years passed. Not figuratively, but literally. Whizzed by. I found myself at the very rim of time and space, a vast giant being composed of the living minds and bodies of every thing that ever was. It was an incredibly moving experience. Exhilarating. I was high for weeks. Finally I told Nishijima Sensei about it . He said it was nonsense. Just my imagination. I can’t tell you how that made me feel. Imagination? This was as real an experience as any I’ve ever had. I just about cried. Later on that day I was eating a tangerine. I noticed how incredibly lovely a thing it was. So delicate. So amazingly orange. So very tasty. So I told Nishijima about that. That experience, he said, was enlightenment.

You need a teacher like that. The world needs lots more teachers like that. Countless teachers would have interpreted my experience as a merging of my Atman with God, as a portent of great and wonderful things, would have praised my spiritual growth and given me pointers on how to go even further. And I would have been suckered right in to that, let me tell you! Woulda fallen for it hook line and sinker, boy howdy. If a teacher doesn’t shatter your illusions he’s doing you no favors at all.

Source: Zen is boring

I’m not sure how comparable the experiences are with each other. The Christian mystics speak of being acutely aware of an Other, a being communicating the experience to them. In that sense it’s not at all an experience that can be cultivated with technique, etc; asking for union with this being is the most one can do and sometimes no attempt at all is made on the receiver’s part. Different in kind I believe.

 

[Kei]

I agree that far too many people search for experience, in the mystical experience the dark night of the soul can be an important thing.

 

[fhansen]

I agree with this as well. And I tend to think that God, in His wisdom, doesn’t grant these experiences to anyone without discretion, of course. Those who receive them tend to be humble, not seeking for their own gain, possessing hearts for God. And He has His own purposes for these revelations.