a-call-for-ecuminical-dialogue-between-catholics-and-protestants

[Christian_Unity]

Great thread! To gain respect, you must show respect!

 

[Christian_Unity]

This is still wrong, as it continues to only present a small part of the picture and not the whole of what the Pope actually said/wrote on the subject, but I am tried of arguing this point with you. I agree that it is important for Catholics and other Christians to work together against secularism, but please stop insisting that the differences between our faiths are unimportant.

That’s all I’m saying on this, as I’ve already engaged you in two other topics, during which you have promptly ignored every point I’ve made.

That quote came from a Catholic website. Here is the link:

justforcatholics.org/benedict_justification.htm

 

[Theophorus]

I would leave Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons outside the circle of historic orthodox Christianity based on the denial of our Triune God. Therefore, I would not call for unity with those two religious groups with Catholics and Protestants.

While I can’t speak for the mormons any JWs I have spoken to would not care to be called either protestants nor part of ‘christendom’. That coupled with the more important point of the denial of the divinity of Christ would, I believe, place them outside of ‘Mere Christianity’ in general.

 

[Christian_Unity]

when all christians have the same Father -in fact all of humanity- it is imprudent that self-righteous persons on this site, should consider themselves alone as God’s children, while maligning devotees of other religions; it follows that salvation is not restricted to any one faith!
this intolerance or arrogance is what makes religion the bane of humanity!

We must respect everyone’s view on religion. I do promote religious tolerance for all religions and non-religious people; we should practice the Golden Rule and love our neighbors as ourselves as commanded by Jesus regardless of what someone personally believes on spiritual matters. However, this ecumenical dialogue is for those who hold to Christian orthodoxy as defined within the Apostle’s Creed and Nicene Creed.

 

[Indyann]

That quote came from a Catholic website. Here is the link:

justforcatholics.org/benedict_justification.htm

That is an ANTI Catholic website. Please no more links or quotes from that website. Thank you.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I certainly hope no one on this site is asserting that they “themselves alone [are] God’s children”. That is not a definitive matter. Now, it’s a different and more accurate thing to say that salvation is only within the Body of Christ. There is one Body to be resurrected at the end of time, and that is the Body of Christ. But to be clear, that is not to exclude special circumstances in which the grace of God is communicated in extraordinary ways, where people are brought into this Body under unique instances.

Peace and blessings,
Anthony

Those are some very large theological issues that go beyond the scope of this thread. I think if we kept to the thread topic of - a call-for-ecumenical-dialogue-between-Catholics-and- (Triune) Protestants, we can avoid from being side tracked with the issue of salvation and reconciliation for those outside of Christian orthodoxy defined by the Apostles and Nicene Creeds.

 

[Theophorus]

That is an ANTI Catholic website. Please no more links or quotes from that website. Thank you.

This website does indeed appear to be trying, to ‘save’ Catholics in an evangelical protestant manner, hardly conducive to the ecumenical dialogue you are proposing.

“Just for Catholics” is an evangelical and evangelistic ministry - evangelical (or Protestant) because we uphold the Holy Scripture as our only infallible rule of faith, and because we believe in salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone; it’s evangelistic because we want to share the evangel (the gospel, good news) with others, especially with Catholics whom we know and love dearly. This work is not authored by Roman Catholics, but it is intended especially for Catholics. While acknowledging with gratitude the help from my pastor and home church, as well as scores of individual Christians worldwide, I take full responsibility for the contents of this website.

 

[Christian_Unity]

That is an ANTI Catholic website. Please no more links or quotes from that website. Thank you.

I didn’t realize it was a site by an ex-Catholic… sorry. Maybe someone can link something from an actual Catholic website which explains the Pope’s teaching about Martin Luther’s infamous statement of justification by faith alone?

 

[Reuben_J]

I have been in an ecumenical Community and I have been in an ecumenical Christian Fellowship. The composition of both are Christians from all denominations. In the former the majority were Catholics and in the latter the number representing the various denominations are about the same - so Catholics count for perhaps about one tenth of the total.

These are good Christian groups, where there are respect and fellowship. We worshiped together, sharing the word, testimonies, ministries and prayers. What made these groups work for a while is because there were completely an absence about Mary and Marian prayers, nothing mentioned of the Eucharist much less the Pope. When a Catholic led the session, he did not make the sign of the cross and no Catholic prayers like the Hail Mary and Glory Be are said. As long as that status quo was maintained, the group was intact.

Today the Community was all Catholics; the Protestants had left because they saw the influence of Catholicism in the group of which the majority are Catholics. The latter group (Fellowship) is still going on though the Catholic members seem to be not as enthusiastic as their Protestant counterparts as Catholic expression of spirituality is being suppressed.

What does it tell me? I can only say that as long as the nature of the content of the ‘ecumenism’ is Protestant in outlook then it is OK but when Catholic element begins to seep in, it is not OK.

So that’s my experience in foraying into ecumenism. Warning is, it can be at the expense of one’s faith.

 

[Christian_Unity]

This website does indeed appear to be trying, to ‘save’ Catholics in an evangelical protestant manner, hardly conducive to the ecumenical dialogue you are proposing.

Here is a link by a Catholic website on the Pope’s teaching on Luther’s faith alone statement:

zenit.org/article-24302?l=english

 

[Christian_Unity]

I have been in an ecumenical Community and I have been in an ecumenical Christian Fellowship. The composition of both are Christians from all denominations. In the former the majority were Catholics and in the latter the number representing the various denominations are about the same - so Catholics count for perhaps about one tenth of the total.

These are good Christian groups, where there are respect and fellowship. We worshiped together, sharing the word, testimonies, ministries and prayers. What made these groups work for a while is because there were completely an absence about Mary and Marian prayers, nothing mentioned of the Eucharist much less the Pope. When a Catholic led the session, he did not make the sign of the cross and no Catholic prayers like the Hail Mary and Glory Be are said. As long as that status quo was maintained, the group was intact.

Today the Community was all Catholics; the Protestants had left because they saw the influence of Catholicism in the group of which the majority are Catholics. The latter group is still going on though the Catholic members seem to be not as enthusiastic as their Protestant counterparts as Catholic expression of spirituality is being suppressed.

What does it tell me? I can only say that as long as the nature of the content of the ‘ecumenism’ is Protestant in outlook then it is OK but when Catholic element begins to seep in, it is not OK.

So that’s my experience in foraying into ecumenism. Warning is, it can be at the expense of one’s faith.

That is very interesting. Let’s see what happens on here through this Catholic Forum site.

 

[PRmerger]

when all christians have the same Father -in fact all of humanity- it is imprudent that self-righteous persons on this site, should consider themselves alone as God’s children, while maligning devotees of other religions; it follows that salvation is not restricted to any one faith!
this intolerance or arrogance is what makes religion the bane of humanity!

And yet here is an intolerant position you are proclaiming, wisedom.

Why is it that you get to espouse an intolerant position but judge others for doing so?

 

[PRmerger]

That quote came from a Catholic website. Here is the link:

justforcatholics.org/benedict_justification.htm

That is NOT a Catholic website, CU.

[SIGN1]It is an anti-Catholic website.[/SIGN1]

 

[Theophorus]

I didn’t realize it was a site by an ex-Catholic… sorry. Maybe someone can link something from an actual Catholic website which explains the Pope’s teaching about Martin Luther’s infamous statement of justification by faith alone?

BXVI:

For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

The Catholic position has always been that it is a Faith, which works through love that saves us. We don’t really disagree with Martin Luther on this as long as the understanding of Faith alone, a loving Faith alone, is retained. We would say that it is through a loving Faith that one seeks the Sacraments etc.

 

[Anthony_V]

That’s really good! We both agree that Jesus is full of grace and truth. When we think about it, Jesus walked a perfect obedient life to our Father’s will, and died a sacrificial death for forgiveness of sins… which merited favor or grace on our behalf. We do access this grace in different ways, and yes Protestants vary in views regarding sacraments as a means of grace. I would say that Calvinist Presbyterians according to the Westminster Confession of Faith would believe the two Protestant sacraments are a means of sanctifying grace when received in faith.

Thank you for your reply.

I like that phrase of “economy of grace”! I do believe Catholics believe that sacramental grace needs to be received in faith too with the exception of infant baptism. Even though Catholic theology is a sacramental economy, I believe Catholics still receive grace in other ways besides the seven sacraments, correct? Do Catholics believe they receive grace when they read and mediate on the Sacred Scriptures on their own personal devotional time?

There is not a single type of grace. In fact, there are many different types of graces (click here). Sanctifying grace is the most integral, as it deals directly with salvation. As far as the sacraments, they each have their own function. I will briefly describe them:

The Eucharist–The source and summit of Christian life, the Eucharist is called Holy Communion because it communicates the blessed life of God as a foretaste of union with God in heaven, and brings the communicant into communion with the Eucharistic assembly in grace. This sacrament imparts a special type of grace to the communicant which strengthens and foster the sanctifying grace, namely of faith, present within him or her.

Baptism–Is the initiation of the penitent into the Body of Christ by healing the penitent of the void of original sin and elevating him or her into a state of sanctifying grace (friendship with God). Baptism is the fulfillment of the repentance already residing within the person, and plants the “mustard seed” of faith. For small children, this faith remains extrinsically dormant until it has an knowledge (age of reason) which to build upon. Nevertheless, it is still intrinsically a living grace of faith.

Confirmation–seals and reaffirms the baptismal promises with an indelible mark on the soul, and grants the confirmand the gifts of the Holy Spirit that the Church received at Pentecost. In conjunction with baptism and first holy communion, confirmation initiates the person fully into the Body of Christ.

Reconciliation–the absolution of the penitent by a priest who validly shares in the high Priesthood of Christ by the configuring of his soul to that of Christ’s by apostolic authority. Reconciliation fulfills the contrition present in the penitent and grants him or her friendship with God (if serious sin has been committed).

Marriage–the binding of one man and one woman together into a covenatal bond and a domestic church. Additionally, it consecrates the man and woman to objectively partake in divine co-creation through reproduction.

Holy Orders–the consecration of a man to partake and become a steward of the high priesthood of Christ through persona Christi in the Church, by a valid apostolic authority. This consecration binds the man to the Church as an “alter christus” or “other Christ”, in the sense that he is given the vocation to die to himself for the sake of the Church, who he marries, and is configured to the image of Christ in a special and everlasting way.

Anointing of the Sick–grants the sick person a spiritual and physical protection as they confront immediately dangerous situations, should it be in the best interest of their salvation and the will of God. It also potentially absolves the person of loss of friendship with God, should serious sin be removed and at least imperfect contrition be acted.

 

[Reuben_J]

That is very interesting. Let’s see what happens on here through this Catholic Forum site.

I will start with a prayer by making the sign of the cross for it is a blessing of the Triune God. I think any prayer of intercession should be standard for all Christians because we need prayers. Mary should be the chief intercessor because of her special relationship with Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity.

We also should make use of the grace of God for our salvation, be it the outward sign like the sacraments or the inward grace like faith. The former will make for a strong sign that the people of God is seen as living the faith together while the latter also strengthen our determination in living out our belief.

The Church must have a visible leader to speak for the flock when necessary but most important of all to streamline belief and practice so that Christians can be truly one in God.

 

[Christian_Unity]

That is NOT a Catholic website, CU.

[SIGN1]It is an anti-Catholic website.[/SIGN1]

Yes, another person made me aware of that. I am truly sorry and I did apologize on another post for that anti-Catholic link. I did replace it with a Catholic website link on the Pope’s teaching about Luther’s infamous statement of faith alone. The point… I was trying to illustrate the Pope’s outreach for ecumenicism with non-Catholics; therefore, it seems that Catholics would follow his lead for ecumenism between Catholics and Protestants.

 

[Christian_Unity]

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

The Catholic position has always been that it is a Faith, which works through love that saves us. We don’t really disagree with Martin Luther on this as long as the understanding of Faith alone, a loving Faith alone, is retained. We would say that it is through a loving Faith that one seeks the Sacraments etc.

Perfect link on the subject of faith alone.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Thank you for your reply.

There is not a single type of grace. In fact, there are many different types of graces (click here). Sanctifying grace is the most integral, as it deals directly with salvation. As far as the sacraments, they each have their own function. I will briefly describe them:

The Eucharist–The source and summit of Christian life, the Eucharist is called Holy Communion because it communicates the blessed life of God as a foretaste of union with God in heaven, and brings the communicant into communion with the Eucharistic assembly in grace. This sacrament imparts a special type of grace to the communicant which strengthens and foster the sanctifying grace, namely of faith, present within him or her.

Baptism–Is the initiation of the penitent into the Body of Christ by healing the penitent of the void of original sin and elevating him or her into a state of sanctifying grace (friendship with God). Baptism is the fulfillment of the repentance already residing within the person, and plants the “mustard seed” of faith. For small children, this faith remains extrinsically dormant until it has an knowledge (age of reason) which to build upon. Nevertheless, it is still intrinsically a living grace of faith.

Confirmation–seals and reaffirms the baptismal promises with an indelible mark on the soul, and grants the confirmand the gifts of the Holy Spirit that the Church received at Pentecost. In conjunction with baptism and first holy communion, confirmation initiates the person fully into the Body of Christ.

Reconciliation–the absolution of the penitent by a priest who validly shares in the high Priesthood of Christ by the configuring of his soul to that of Christ’s by apostolic authority. Reconciliation fulfills the contrition present in the penitent and grants him or her friendship with God (if serious sin has been committed).

Marriage–the binding of one man and one woman together into a covenatal bond and a domestic church. Additionally, it consecrates the man and woman to objectively partake in divine co-creation through reproduction.

Holy Orders–the consecration of a man to partake and become a steward of the high priesthood of Christ through persona Christi in the Church, by a valid apostolic authority. This consecration binds the man to the Church as an “alter christus” or “other Christ”, in the sense that he is given the vocation to die to himself for the sake of the Church, who he marries, and is configured to the image of Christ in a special and everlasting way.

Anointing of the Sick–grants the sick person a spiritual and physical protection as they confront immediately dangerous situations, should it be in the best interest of their salvation and the will of God. It also potentially absolves the person of loss of friendship with God, should serious sin be removed and at least imperfect contrition be acted.

That’s really good. Thanks!

 

[Christian_Unity]

I will start with a prayer by making the sign of the cross for it is a blessing of the Triune God. I think any prayer of intercession should be standard for all Christians because we need prayers. Mary should be the chief intercessor because of her special relationship with Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity.

We also should make use of the grace of God for our salvation, be it the outward sign like the sacraments or the inward grace like faith. The former will make for a strong sign that the people of God is seen as living the faith together while the latter also strengthen our determination in living out our belief.

The Church must have a visible leader to speak for the flock when necessary but most important of all to streamline belief and practice so that Christians can be truly one in God.

Right on… nice post. I will try to spend most of my time on this thread as compared to the others I started. This is a pretty cool site… quite addicting.